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Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 804
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 10:09 pm: | 
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Actually the camera isn't an Agfa, it's a Pax M2... but they must have sourced their lubricants from the same Super Glue factory that Agfa used. This is a really slick little camera with the World's Smallest Leaf Shutter, but almost every part of the camera is solidly glued together: aperture, focus helical, even the rewind knob is glued solid.
I've got the lens/shutter/focus assembly off of the body, but I haven't been able to get the helical to budge. With the shutter attached, I'm reluctant to either bake it or soak it in solvent to try to soften it up, but the usual stuff isn't working.
Anybody got any magic experience or inspired ideas for softening this up so that I can clean and relube it? |
Harryrag
Tinkerer
Username: Harryrag
Post Number: 52
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 04:24 am: |
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I just don't believe that ... Rick asking sb else for help?
But maybe this is a good chance to pay back what you have been doing for so many others.
Whenever there is dried up mineral oil/ grease to remove I use contact cleaner (CRC Industries), it does not only soften old grease, it also removes corrosion from metallic and grime from painted surfaces etc. I know, without knowing how, that it works like a charm. I guess it contains the same solvent that is used in brake cleaners.
Glenn, can you help me out? It is usually you, the reliable expert knowing about stuff like that. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 805
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 08:23 am: |
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I've tried CRC's QD Electronic Cleaner as well as naphtha, but they do not penetrate. This is a double helical focus mount, any solvent will have to penetrate a great distance through a very small gap to free it up. The camera promises to come out nicely if I can get this taken care of. I'm thinking about putting it under an incandescent lamp to warm it up and see if that helps..... |
Donnie_strickland
Tinkerer
Username: Donnie_strickland
Post Number: 63
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 08:28 am: |
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I just now saw this post and was about to suggest that, Rick. I put an Ansco Speedex Special "R" under my incandescent desk lamp for a few hours. I positioned the bulb a couple of inches above the lens. It only helped a little, but it was just enough to get the lens unscrewed. |
Markus
Tinkerer
Username: Markus
Post Number: 102
Registered: 08-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 08:46 am: |
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I once was successful in freeing up the helical on a Flexaret by putting the thing into the oven for 10 minutes at the lowest temperature. I think your idea of using an incandescent light bulb is a lot gentler and might just work. I was able to strip the Flexaret down to just the brass helical, and did not have to put anything but that in the oven. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 806
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 09:18 am: |
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I think I'll go ahead and try the lamp... at least that should spread its effect through the part, which the solvents don't seem able to do. Thanks everybody! I'll let you know how it goes. |
Dgillette4
Tinkerer
Username: Dgillette4
Post Number: 279
Registered: 04-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 09:25 am: |
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Rick: is there any plastic nearby that cold be affected? Other wise I would try lighter fluid or acetone. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 807
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 11:51 am: |
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no, there's no plastic, and I've tried lighter fluid. Wouldn't want to use acetone if there was plastic around, that's sure death. |
Charlie
Tinkerer
Username: Charlie
Post Number: 198
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 01:04 pm: |
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I have an Ansco Regent (Agfa Solinette) with frozen focus. I can remove the lens/shutter assembly leaving a dark metallic sleeve which is part of the focussing system. I am going to try heating the inside by focusing the sun with a magnifying glass which shouldn't heat the bellows as much as the oven treatment. When the sun gets a little warmer. |
Harryrag
Tinkerer
Username: Harryrag
Post Number: 53
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 01:09 pm: |
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Rick, contact cleaner is, as the name implies, for electr(on)ic contacts, it looks kind of pink when sprayed out and it creeps. Given a bit of time it travels very reliably, which the usual "cleaner" does not. Maybe it is sold under another name in the US. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 808
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 04:28 pm: |
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Thanks, I'll look for the contact cleaner. Not having much luck so far with the lamp approach, and since it's been snowing off & on all day I won't be trying the sunshine approach for a while..... |
Markus
Tinkerer
Username: Markus
Post Number: 103
Registered: 08-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 05:27 pm: |
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Rick, maybe you could heat the shutter/lens more effectively using a hair dryer. I would think that you'll be able to put more heat into it with that than with the lamp, but you'll have a lot more control than baking it in the oven. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 809
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 06:56 pm: |
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Thanks Markus, I might try that. Have to borrow the wife's hair dryer, I've been bald for about 30 years
: ) = |
Markus
Tinkerer
Username: Markus
Post Number: 104
Registered: 08-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 08:50 pm: |
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I'm getting there, too. |
Nickon51
Tinkerer
Username: Nickon51
Post Number: 52
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 02:21 am: |
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I wonder if it would be worth trying a different approach. Instead of trying to dissolve the carrier, how about trying to soften it with some fresh lube. Try running some Triflo down around the helicoid. Could be worth a try.
I give it a go myself but I haven't got a frozen lens like that.
CRC 2-26 or 5-56 or any type of penetrating oil might be worth a shot. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 810
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 04:32 am: |
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The thought has occurred to me, don't know if anything can penetrate into this.... |
Glenn
Tinkerer
Username: Glenn
Post Number: 520
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 07:56 am: |
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A DIY version of a tested industrial process may work - A small ultra sonic cleaning bath and warm solvent may be as successful as the industrial process. The problem will be in the choice of solvent, many industrial solvents which may work are definitely not suitable for DIY kitchen stove applications! I have used various chlorinated solvents in my small rig to remove very old preservation greases, these had completely dried out in various mechanisms (none photographic). I tend to use white spirit or paraffin where it is apparent that chlorinated solvents will not take the grease into solution. |
Scott
Tinkerer
Username: Scott
Post Number: 31
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 07:24 am: |
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I have a PaX, early-model rangefinder, unit-focusing helix. When I got it, the focusing helix was as stuck as it could be.
I disassembled it as far as I could, removed all of the lens elements, etc.
Then tried soaking it. Submersed it a day in lighter fluid. Didn't help. Dripped acetone into the crack..nothing. Then I got the strongest alcohol I could find at the hardware store and soaked it a day...then it came loose...grease was still thick, but loosened enough to unscrew the helix. I think it was industrial alcohol for cleaning...it is colored pink. Maybe the methanol that mechanics use when cleaning brake parts would work, too.
But heat is what finally helped when I had a similar problem on an Agfa folding camera. |
Picker77
Tinkerer
Username: Picker77
Post Number: 6
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 01:12 pm: |
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Brake cleaner (sprayed an inch or so deep into a small stainless steel container and covered) and a 3 hour soaking softened that junk enough to break the lens free on my Speedex Special R. Still had to gently scrape and brush the softened green gunk off the threads, though. It is certainly nasty stuff.
In the same "solvent" vein, the best friend you'll ever find for $7 is a can of Birchwood Casey Gun Scrubber. Available at any large gun shop. Universally used by gunsmiths for TOTAL degreasing/de-oiling. Instantly flushes and removes ALL traces of oil from metal surfaces. It does such a good job that bare carbon steel surfaces will flash rust very quickly, so should be used on those metals only just before refinishing or re-lubing. Contains 1,1,1, Trichloroethane, will eat some plastics and don't breathe it. A few shots of GS completely cleaned out and restored to 100% working order the sluggish Pronto SVS on my Speedex R. Even the self timer works great now. Ditto the rangefinder assembly, which now works perfectly.
All I have to do now is replace the bellows (gulp). But with a total investment of about $40 in the camera so far, I'm going for it as a DIY project. Should be fun. |
Charlie
Tinkerer
Username: Charlie
Post Number: 199
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 01:22 pm: |
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Back when, I used to clean my Volkswagen carburetor every fall in xylene. Now I see it listed as a stinky carcinogen. Today's miracle cleaner can be tomorrows nono so be careful. The VW ran well all winter, though |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 811
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 05:42 pm: |
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Well, as it happens, I have all of those here, and heat hasn't worked so far, so I guess I'll get cracking. Alcohol it is first, since that's been tested on an actual Pax.
Thanks all! |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 812
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 04:37 am: |
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Picker, use sparingly what's left of your Gun Scrubber: 1,1,1 Trichloroethane (which I used to buy in large spray cans) has been banned for sale in the USA for several years now. The closest that you can get now is Tetrachloroethylene (aka Perchlorethylene), which is sold as non-flammable brake cleaner. It shares most of the properties of Trichlor, including its stress cracking effect on polycarbonate and some other plastics, but to a somewhat lesser degree. |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 69
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 12:33 pm: |
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Rick, the problem with Agfa's grease is that it reacts with air and brass and forms polymer chains over time (think plastic). No solvent, with the POSSIBLE exception of acetone, will make a dent in it. Heat works to soften it -- enough that you can force parts to unscrew, but it usually takes repeated applications, since you don't want to heat it up a lot and the camera cools off quickly. For small parts, that you can submerge, putting them in a sealed black plastic film canister with some napatha and setting them in the sun for a few hours on a hot day sometimes works pretty well. The grease often just extrudes out of the threads under those conditions. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 813
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 04:11 pm: |
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24 hours in alcohol hasn't done anything, and there's no sun to set it in for a few months yet. I'll try some sterner stuff in the liquid department and see if I have any luck.... |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 70
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 04:51 pm: |
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Honestly, Rick, I don't think any solvent except acetone is going to work. The problem is the polymer chains. You really need something that is going to break them down. If you can't use heat, then the only thing I can think of that MIGHT work is acetone. Heat will work, but all it is going to do is soften it to the consistency of old chewing gum. It still won't come out easily. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 814
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 08:04 pm: |
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I've got acetone, I'll try that next. Thanks! |
Glenn
Tinkerer
Username: Glenn
Post Number: 521
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 10:55 am: |
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Charles,
Do you have details of the actual polymerisation reaction, or the original formulation of the grease? If we know the chemical composition of the polymer, breaking it down may be easier ie many polymers are broken down by methylene chloride. Are you inferring that the original grease was synthetic? Many early optical greases were thickened by soaps, these just naturally thicken up (read 'set hard') as they dry out over time. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 815
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 10:03 pm: |
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There has been some progress with the alcohol - the focus helical is still stuck but after about 2 days the aperture diaphragm (which was also rock-solid) freed up and is now working fine. I haven't gotten around to changing solutions yet, and until I do I've just left it in the alcohol - if I stay busy long enough, it might take care of it for me. |
Glenn
Tinkerer
Username: Glenn
Post Number: 522
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 06:03 pm: |
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Rick,
Having an idle hour, I have searched for successful methods of removing this sticky problem. All the positive outcomes use alcohol as the solvent; however, experience tells me if this is the case then other more 'aggressive' industrial solvents will also work. Freeing up the helical is going to be dependent on rate of penetration and take up of grease into solution - a long process I guess unless you can set up some form of agitation to keep the 'dilution' process moving. |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 72
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 06:09 pm: |
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Glenn, I don't have details. It is just something I ran into when I was desperatly trying to get one of my own Agfa lenses apart that was very firmly stuck. After soaking the lens elements in Liquid Wrench for THREE MONTHS they were still stuck. I put a hair dryer on it until touching it would cause blisters. Nothing worked. Several websites mentioned that the grease polymerizes and one mentioned the polymer chains in detail. I think it was on apug, but I can't find it now. Anyway, I happened to recall the effect acetone had on some plastics in a former job and tried it. A few minutes in warm acetone and it FINALLY loosened up enough to get it apart. It works. However, acetone can cause other problems of its own. For instance, it is pretty darned effective at removing paint and when it comes to flammability and fumes, it makes naptha look like something that sissies play with. |
Harryrag
Tinkerer
Username: Harryrag
Post Number: 54
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 03:17 am: |
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I guess the key word here is FINALLY. Trying several methods or solvents in rapid succession will in the end make it impossible to say which one caused the breakthrough. |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 73
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 05:36 pm: |
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There was nothing rapid about it. After trying naptha, alcohol and Liquid Wrench, without success, I left it soaking in Liquid Wrench and forgot about it. About three months later, I opened the container and it was still stuck. I set it aside to dry for about a week and tried heat, as people here advised me to do. That didn't work either. I was about to give up and go get the strap wrenches when I thought about acetone. I put the acetone in a film cannister, with the lens and set it out on the back porch, on a hot day. Next time I looked at it, some of the green grease had come out of the threads and it was loose enough that it could be forced to unscrew with hand pressure. I didn't need the strap wrenches after all. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 827
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 05:17 am: |
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FINALLY!
2 weeks in Alcohol freed up the aperture ring but not the focus helical. After that, 2 days in Acetone had no effect. 2 days in Xylene did the trick: this morning, the focus helical moved for the first time. When I get home from work I'll separate it and start cleaning off the gook.
Again, this is not actually an Agfa, it's a Pax. I'm not sure if Xylene is the stuff to free up an Agfa, but I'll try it next time I have to deal with one. |
Charlie
Tinkerer
Username: Charlie
Post Number: 200
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 05:55 am: |
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If xylene will clean a German carburetor it ought to work on a German camera. How is it sold nowadays? |
Adrian
Tinkerer
Username: Adrian
Post Number: 232
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 08:24 am: |
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Very carefully!
It's volatile, flammable (ie it burns, I am aware of the pond differences here!), and toxic by inhalation with some fairly hairy possible effects. You are not supposed to use it now in an open laboratory, always under forced ventilation.
I don't know what the situation is where you are but treat with a great deal of respect!
Adrian |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 828
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 07:05 pm: |
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i bought a quart can of it in the paint section of the hardware store. |
Epatsellis
Tinkerer
Username: Epatsellis
Post Number: 10
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 07:29 pm: |
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damn, and I have 2 gals of it, anybody need some miracle camera shutter solvent? |
Ethostech
Tinkerer
Username: Ethostech
Post Number: 108
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 01:07 am: |
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I recall that the late Edward Romney in one of his camera repair publications conceded that chemical removal of that green grease as so common in many Agfa cameras was impossible. He alluded to filing and paring as the only methodology. My own experience is that Yes - it can be dissolved or broken down - but not without also dissolving the camera. You were seldom wrong Edward. R.I.P. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 832
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 09, 2009 - 09:19 pm: |
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Done:
http:[email protected]/3342376029/ |
Russelljtdyer
Tinkerer
Username: Russelljtdyer
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 03:50 pm: |
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Rick,
How did you remove the lens from the body of the camera. I just bought a Pax M2. Only the aperture ring is frozen. Do I need to remove the lens to submerge it. I was thinking of just putting the lens in a small cup of alcohol (followed by other chemicals if necessary) with the body outside of the cup. Also, I see that I can remove the front part of the lens to get at the aperture blades. With the Bulb setting, I can press the shutter release to open it to let the liquids in. So, will this work without disassembling it? Or will the alcohol seep up into the body in time and cause damage elsewhere?
If I need to remove the lens, do you know where I can find a repair manual on-line? Or can you tell me simply what you did to remove the lens? I see three very small screws on the outside of the lens, at the base on the focusing ring. I also see one small screw on the outside of the lens, above the focusing ring--actually under it when the focus is set to infinity. Please let me know which ones I would need to remove. I don't want to start removing screws and have a spring come out or something else come loose and not be able to get it back together again.
Thanks in advance for whatever assistance you or others here may offer me. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 998
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 06:20 pm: |
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Hi! Email me at [email protected] and I'll send you my notes.
Alcohol isn't likely to do much, but you never know. Xylene was the only thing that worked for me.
rick |
Nickon51
Tinkerer
Username: Nickon51
Post Number: 100
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 12:22 am: |
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I posted a reply further back, but didn't have an Agfa at the time. Since then I've had in an Agfa Silette with a Prontor Shutter. The front element was tight and I couldn't turn it by hand using the usual methods. I did not use a screw clamp or anything like that.
I removed the focus indicator, sat the camera on its back and dribbled enough TRI-FLOW to keep the top of the barrel threads wet. I repeated this a few times over several days.
I could then quite easily turn the front cell and unscrew it from the shutter, Also there was some wet grease around the top of the threads.
This of course may be a one of, and I could have just been lucky, but It may worth trying. The threads further down still looked dry, but maybe longer soaking times might get down there.
Tri-Flow is made in the US.
Cheers |
Glenn
Tinkerer
Username: Glenn
Post Number: 696
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 04:30 pm: |
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I am not really surprised with the Tri-Flow success, a quick perusal of the MSDS indicates an 'active' carrier solvent mix. I doubt that the PTFE content plays any part in the softening/dissolving process.
Many of these specialised 'lubricants' can play an important part in the dismantling/cleaning process of old equipment of all types, any collector of military firearms will attest to the effectiveness of WD40 in removing that very tenacious substance - Cosmoline. |
