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Tunashoes
Tinkerer
Username: Tunashoes
Post Number: 15
Registered: 03-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 01:25 pm: | 
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I am working on a Kodak Signet 35 and have noticed that the Synchro 300 shutter is missing 2 springs; the blade latch spring and the retard sector spring. From looking at the service manual on Dan Mitchell's site (http://pheugo.com/cameras/index.php?page=downloads), it looks like these seem to be very thing springs. I was wondering if anyone has any experience making springs from spring steel. I looked on McMaster Carr and they sale stainless steel spring wire down to .009 inches. I was wondering if that would be small enough? Too small?? Any ideas? |
Denverdad
Tinkerer
Username: Denverdad
Post Number: 3
Registered: 05-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 07:33 pm: |
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This is something I have dealt with also, mostly on older cameras with rotating disc shutters (sometimes with the goal of creating thicker, stiffer replacement springs in order to increase shutter speeds). What you want to look for is called either music wire or piano wire. It comes in gauges down to at least the .009" diameter you found at McMaster (this would be a "size 0" I think). Ebay is another source, and I have purchased an assortment of sizes from a particular seller whom I could look up for you if you're interested.
The hardest part is fabricating the spring into the right shape from the wire. I'm not going to say it is easy (in fact working with the small diameters can be a real bear sometimes), but this link is very helpful and will get you started with some ideas for creating torsion springs (which is what I assume is the type you are trying to reproduce). The information there is perhaps geared more towards the making of larger sized springs, but spend some time on that site and you will get a good sense of at least what is possible.
As for that particular camera and it's springs, unfortunately I have no knowledge of what size is required. If someone with the same shutter could measure the spring diameters for you using a caliper or mic, then you just have to find the closest available music wire to that size. It is do-able.
In general, a thicker wire (and I believe also fewer turns) makes for a stiffer spring, and faster action. Once you have a spring made, you can also tweak the spring rate somewhat by changing the angle between the two ends of the spring and then re-installing it. "Opening up" the angle will make it stiffer while making the angle smaller will make it less stiff.
Hopefully that helps a little. 
Jeff |
Tunashoes
Tinkerer
Username: Tunashoes
Post Number: 16
Registered: 03-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 08:13 pm: |
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Thanks Jeff, that is great information. I did further research after making the post and came to the conclusion that I need spring steel, the same thing in piano and music wire, so your experience confirms that for me! You are right, I need torsion springs. I also found a website http://www.fortepiano.com/wire/Roeslau/roeslau.htm selling piano and music wire that seems to have pretty resonable prices and wire down to .006 inches. I measured some of the other springs in the shutter and they are about .007 inches. So probably something in that range might work. I also read that in order to make springs from paino/music wire you heated it up in order to bend it around a form. I guess I may try first to salvage some springs from another type of junker camera I have, but if that doesn't work out I am curious to try making springs as I think that would be a good skill to have! |
Old_school
Tinkerer
Username: Old_school
Post Number: 60
Registered: 04-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 10:20 pm: |
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The art of making springs is an old trade. The music wire will work, but it is very strong & maintains a memory as such. I have tried to use music wire on a watchmakers lathe, oh boy. It took several attempts to get the hardness out of it. I picked that up a a hobby store, they are gone now. Old guitar strings is another possibility. You need to learn the process of tempering & hardening steel, by heating to a cherry red letting it air cool, then cleaning it off & blue it. Turn, bend, shape, & re-temper for the hardness desired. This may be found in an old watch or clockmakers course book at the library I should think, if they have not tossed them yet.
Before anything gets tossed I dismantel it for the springs, screws, washers, & the where did it go clips, E clips. Then the springs are cobbled an used at a later time. The hairsprings from the 1800-1940's were primarily a high carbon steel. The steel would be drawn through a die to reduce it's size and the desired shape, rectangular side view. When the shape was there, they cut them to a desired length, rolled them into a barrel, three or four intertwined to a chamber. Then seal the openings with, I think it was a soap, not exactly sure at the moment. Then, the little chambers (made of German Sliver as I recall) were placed into a batch of hot coals & I think it was left over night, again I would have to do the research. Pulled out & tested for strength for the proper count as it is called. This method was replaced by tempering the hairsprings in either mercury or extra virgin olive oil. Nivorx in Switzerland is one of the last firms still making the hairsprings & mainsprings for watches, they also make specialty wires, like the heating elements in aircraft windshields. They draw the wire through a diamond die in an oil bath & the rest of the rolling & cutting is mechanized, neet to see. They temper the springs in large pottery electric style kilns in an inert gas (trade secret, I know what they use, but will honor there wishes to keep it a secret, it was labeled on the control panel). If you are curious, see if you can find a break down of the $ amount the Swiss take in for those toys they make, it is stagering, as the volume is very low and the profits are very rewarding for them compared to the rest of the planet. I still like my old Hamilton & Illinois pocket watches.
Ok I got a little carried of on another topic, sorry.
The Best, Mike.... |
Mndean
Tinkerer
Username: Mndean
Post Number: 244
Registered: 08-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 10:53 pm: |
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Electric guitar strings will be easy to find down to about .008, also you could try other stringed instruments (banjo, mandolin) as well. Electric guitar strings singly will be cheaper than piano wire to experiment with. Acoustic guitar strings - I don't know if I've ever seen a 1st string as small as even .009 on an acoustic.
You should try find a music store nearby that sells single strings (lots of guitarists break strings so don't need a whole set), and ask for whichever size 1st string(s) you want.
I don't think these materials will make very good strings without Mike's advice above about tempering and hardening. |
Donnie_strickland
Tinkerer
Username: Donnie_strickland
Post Number: 118
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 10:57 pm: |
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I needed a spring for the film advance lever pawl on a Kodak Chevron. I rifled through my junk box and found a spring which would work with a little adaptation. It was out of a Canon AF35M. I don't know if this will help in your case but it might be an idea. |
Tunashoes
Tinkerer
Username: Tunashoes
Post Number: 17
Registered: 03-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2011 - 10:02 am: |
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Thanks, this is great information. I found a couple from an Electro 35 that I could never get along with! They seem a little short, but might work. If not, I think the guitar string idea would probably be the easiest route. I guess it might take some experimenting because the Synchro 300 has such a bad reputation who knows if it will ever be reliable!!! |
Donnie_strickland
Tinkerer
Username: Donnie_strickland
Post Number: 119
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2011 - 10:10 am: |
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My Signet 35's shutter is reliable after a cleaning. I think it tends to get a bad rap because it only has 4 shutter speeds... |
Old_school
Tinkerer
Username: Old_school
Post Number: 62
Registered: 04-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2011 - 10:31 am: |
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I just tossed out an old computer diskette, but before it went took it apart. There is a nice spring in there for the sliding cover. It measures like 0.0135 inches or 0.34mm diameter & the arms are 14mm in length for instance. Ball point pens were a source for springs & the little ball at the end on the tip could be used some times for a detent for F stops or where ever needed.
Post it when I think of it
The Best Mike..... |
Barnum
Tinkerer
Username: Barnum
Post Number: 203
Registered: 10-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2011 - 11:17 am: |
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Any camera of other gear that is not worth bothering with, I strip. I now have a wide selection of springs that have served to get things working from cameras, to the pawl controlling the cylinder of a replica 19th century colt revolver. Save everything, you never know when it will come in useful! Of course,those who have to sort your stuff out after you are gone, might hope you don't wind up in Heaven! |
Tunashoes
Tinkerer
Username: Tunashoes
Post Number: 18
Registered: 03-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2011 - 11:36 am: |
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The Diskette I s great idea. I think I have a few laying around still. |
Tunashoes
Tinkerer
Username: Tunashoes
Post Number: 19
Registered: 03-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2011 - 11:41 am: |
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Yeah, I haven't been into camera "repair" for very long, so I don't have many "junkers". Also, I have this problem, I try to fix every one that I buy! Like this Signet 35, I should probably have tossed it instead of fixing it. I picked it up on ebay and when I got it realized that someone had already tore into it, thus the missing springs and scratched paint on the shutter nut. But I just can't resist the temptation to try to figure out why it isn't working and come up with a solution to fix it. The Electro 35 on the other hand... I fixed it ONE too many times and it received the full force of my frustration!!!!! |
Old_school
Tinkerer
Username: Old_school
Post Number: 63
Registered: 04-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2011 - 11:50 am: |
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T:
You didn't know Dave, by chance?
Dave brought in a tent stake mallet to class & the largest pipe wrench I've ever seen to loan to a fellow student for his troubled camera.
Sorry! (Could not resist, but it is true & funny.)
The Best Mike.... |
Mndean
Tinkerer
Username: Mndean
Post Number: 245
Registered: 08-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2011 - 12:57 pm: |
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Shame, all I have are couple of junker Kodak Pony cameras, and they both have a different shutter (Flash 200). I have some loose springs, but you really should have the right one. |
Tunashoes
Tinkerer
Username: Tunashoes
Post Number: 20
Registered: 03-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 05, 2011 - 08:47 am: |
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The 3.5" floppy disk sliding cover spring did the trick! |
Old_school
Tinkerer
Username: Old_school
Post Number: 67
Registered: 04-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 05, 2011 - 09:08 am: |
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T:
You ever see the movie "Never Cry Wolf"? There is a line in it & through a translator it comes out, "He said," Hum Good Idea!".
Talk about a long shot.
Great!
The Best Mike.... |
