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Denverdad
Tinkerer
Username: Denverdad
Post Number: 6
Registered: 05-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2011 - 10:38 pm: | 
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So I finally located and purchased a Kodak Monitor Six-20 that seemed to be just what I was looking for - a post war example (1946), having the Anastigmat Special lens, and seemingly in good condition. But soon I noticed what might be an important mechanical problem: with the lens popped into position, it wasn't quite parallel with the film plane. I did a quick check with a level and was able to verify that indeed, the final position of lens was just shy of parallel.
Any suggestions as to how to track down the source of the problem more specifically, or for that matter, whether it can even be corrected at all? In particular, how does one disassemble the camera enough to get a better look at the strut mechanisms, front door hinge, etc.? Do I need to remove the bellows first?
Some more details: The strut assembly has a pretty solid feel to it overall, and it DOES lock into place very positively. If I pull with a little force on the lens door, I can bring the lens into a more parallel alignment (and maybe slightly past it). Doing so, I see a very slight movement at the bottom of the door, moving slightly inward towards the bellows as if there was a little slop between the door and the camera body. Another thing I noticed is that there is very little if any spring tension in the mechanism. Should there be?. It doesn't "pop out" at all when you push the release button, but instead you have pull the lens out. I would have expected at least a little spring action in there, so I am wondering if maybe just reworking/replacing the springs could correct the alignment?
Any suggestions are appreciated. I know that questionable parallelism is an oft cited concern with old folders. But I think that this is one of those better-lensed cameras that has the potential to be a solid performer, so I am willing to try to fix the problem if it is at all possible. Thanks.
Jeff |
Finnegan
Tinkerer
Username: Finnegan
Post Number: 91
Registered: 09-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2011 - 11:56 am: |
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You are splitting hairs here. It will shoot fine as it is. I am more surprised the bellows are not pin-holed. No, no pop in place spring action on these.
If it has to be just so, disassembly is not necessary. In half open position look at the bottom of the lens standard. Usually there is a tab on each side that fits into a "V" fork on each side of the bed. A minor bend backward with pliers on the tabs will push the lans standard forward into an erect position upon fully opening it. Too much correction and it won't lock in position and you will be fiddling with it all day. |
Denverdad
Tinkerer
Username: Denverdad
Post Number: 7
Registered: 05-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2011 - 11:44 pm: |
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Finnegan, thanks for the information. I took a closer look at the mechanism, and I think I see what you are saying about how bending those tabs would effect a tilt adjustment. Knowing that it is not supposed to be self-erecting (I have seen folders that are, which is why I wasn't sure) is very helpful; and it is good to know that I shouldn't have to tear the whole thing apart in order to make an adjustment.
I'm surprised though that you say it should shoot fine as it is. How can you say that without knowing how much tilt it really has? You really consider it that inconsequential?
As for there not being any pinholes, well I didn't say there weren't any! ;) Actually you inspired me to check just now and yes there are some. But I figure let's tackle one thing at a time. |
John_s
Tinkerer
Username: John_s
Post Number: 62
Registered: 07-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 31, 2011 - 01:32 pm: |
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I had a similar problem with an Agfa folder and managed to adjust the tabs which engage with grooves on the folding mechanism, a bit like the Monitor (but access looks harder on the Monitor). Before I did it there was a noticeable fall off in focus at one end of the pictures.
I also replaced the bellows on the Monitor with one from a scrap 6X9 folder. You have to bend back the metal tabs around the film gate to release the old bellows, and remove the lens assembly at the front - keep a careful note of how the shutter operating mechanism works if you have to do this - I nearly made a mess of it when reassembling. |
Finnegan
Tinkerer
Username: Finnegan
Post Number: 93
Registered: 09-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2011 - 05:38 pm: |
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The bellows always seem to go bad on these (and the Vigilant). I have a nice Vigilant with the good lens in a Supermatic shutter (goes to 1/400th) but the bellows are really pin holed.
If you can see a focus problem then adjust it. Put a ground glass on the film area to check the focus. |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 190
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2011 - 12:00 pm: |
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"How can you say that without knowing how much tilt it really has?"
Uh... would that be because you said it was just shy of parallel and that you had to check it with a level to be sure? |
Denverdad
Tinkerer
Username: Denverdad
Post Number: 8
Registered: 05-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2011 - 11:32 pm: |
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Hmmm... perhaps I gave the wrong impression about the degree of tilt involved. The problem is that in lieu of a quantitative measurement, how does one best convey the magnitude of the angle? I tend to have a very good eye for parallels and perpendiculars myself, and because of that I often find that my "way off" is only "barely noticeable" to most others. So I may have gone too far in watering down my adjectives this time. But just to be clear, the lens standard on this camera is very noticeably (to me at least!) not parallel with the film plane. I used the bubble level not "to be sure" of the tilt, but rather to verify that it was enough that most people would probably describe it as noticeably off. (And also in anticipation of those asking, "are you sure it doesn't just look tilted?; have you measured it?") Anyway, sorry about any confusion in that regard.
In the mean time, I have actually become more concerned about the bellows than the lens position. I hadn't realized what a bad reputation this particular camera apparently has for its bellows developing pinholes (as mine has)! From what I can tell, replacing the bellows would be rather difficult, partly because of having to build a new one from scratch - unless anyone knows of a commercially available replacement? But also, because of the riveted construction of the camera which makes for a more involved bellows replacement process. Of course, the easier solution is to just repair the pinholes, and I have read of several methods for doing so. But my preference would still be to replace the bellows if it is possible. But maybe it is not very practical. Does anyone have any personal experience with this?
Thanks. |
John_s
Tinkerer
Username: John_s
Post Number: 63
Registered: 07-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2011 - 03:04 am: |
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I replaced the bellows in my Monitor with one from a scrap English folder. There are metal tabs around the film gate which bend over and trap the bellows at the "large" end. Its not too difficult to bend them back with a screwdriver and release the old bellows at that end. At the other end you have to remove the lens by unscrewing the retaining ring at the back, then the "small" end can be released and the bellows removed. You don't have to open any rivets or anything. Make careful note of how the shutter release linkage attaches to the lens as its tricky getting this back together later. Refitting the bellows is the reverse process, obviously the key to it is bending the tabs back over to trap the new bellows. I actually used black silicone sealant around the edge to try & make sure there were no light leaks - very messy! New bellows are still available, I actually saw some at a camera fair last week but its not much help as it was in the UK. The alternative is to cannibalise a cheap 6x9 folder although I was lucky to find a scrap one which fitted. Hope this helps. |
Denverdad
Tinkerer
Username: Denverdad
Post Number: 9
Registered: 05-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2011 - 08:26 am: |
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Thanks John, that is very helpful. If just takes bending those tabs on the "big end" but no drilling of rivets, then I will probably give it a go. I understand that you have to be careful not to break off the tabs and that you may only get once chance at it.
As for the replacement bellows, I wonder if a new bellows made for any other 6x9 folder would work just as well. Are they all pretty much the same dimensions? I ask because I think I have seen new bellows for Agfa Records, Super Ikontas, etc. Then too, I've heard that a Kodak Vigilant bellows can be a good replacement. If I found a Vigilant that was junked (i.e., inexpensive) but with good bellows, I might give that a try too. |
John_s
Tinkerer
Username: John_s
Post Number: 64
Registered: 07-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2011 - 09:36 am: |
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Can't be sure about bellows sizes but they do seem to be reasonably standard for 6x9 cameras. Probably the size of the hole at the front is the critical thing. The only problem with mine was that the scrap folder had a shorter lens (100mm vs 105mm I think) and the bellows are overstretched slightly when extended but it works well enough. |
John_s
Tinkerer
Username: John_s
Post Number: 65
Registered: 07-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2011 - 04:31 pm: |
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I had a look at it again - you need a pair of long nosed pliers or similar to bend back the tabs, rather than a screwdriver as I earlier suggested. |
Denverdad
Tinkerer
Username: Denverdad
Post Number: 10
Registered: 05-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2011 - 10:51 am: |
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I remember reading about those those tabs a while back, but when I went looking for them couldn't find anything of the kind, viewing from either the front or back of the camera. But I think I eventually found them - are we talking about very small tabs on the underside of the film plane? I can't see them, but I can feel them! I counted 12 which matches a description I read somewhere. As for a tool, I'm sure I can find (or make) something that will do the job of bending them back.
By the way, do the tabs hold onto the bellows directly, or is there some sort of backing plate that clamps the bellows in? It is hard to tell by feel, and I only ask becuase that would affect how far the tabs need to be bent to release the bellows. |
Connealy
Tinkerer
Username: Connealy
Post Number: 58
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2011 - 03:19 pm: |
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There is a thin metal frame inside the last bellows fold. I'm attaching a photo of some tools I have found useful in prying up the Kodak bellows tabs. I think I paid only about 5 bucks for the set at Lowe's in Albuquerque.
 |
John_s
Tinkerer
Username: John_s
Post Number: 66
Registered: 07-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2011 - 06:29 am: |
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Yes it is the 12 small tabs - they need bending back around 90 degrees. Its a while since I did it and I'd forgotten exactly what they were like. I don't recall a separate backing plate. I actually ripped out the remains of the old bellows first, making access a bit easier. |
Denverdad
Tinkerer
Username: Denverdad
Post Number: 11
Registered: 05-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2011 - 01:58 pm: |
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Ah, very helpful. Thanks! |
John_shriver
Tinkerer
Username: John_shriver
Post Number: 67
Registered: 12-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 08:33 pm: |
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New Old Stock Kodak bellows that fit the Monitor and Vigilant do show up on eBay periodically. They need to be long, quite a lot of folds. Item 380378889599 might be close, but it may not have enough folds. That 26659 bellows is really for a No. 1 Autographic Kodak Junior with Kodex or Diomatic shutter. (That seller used to have bellows that suited the Monitor very well with just a swap of the front plate from the old bellows, but they are probably sold out.)
Very nice camera, lens, and shutter, but the bellows is the Achilles heel. |
Tunashoes
Tinkerer
Username: Tunashoes
Post Number: 22
Registered: 03-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 10:24 am: |
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I bought some bellows on ebay from seller frendakfurnari about 1 year ago for use in a Kodak Autographic Jr No 1. I remember the part number 4730 fit. I have an extra set of bellows from that purchase that I am going to put in a Monitor.
About the tabs. In my opinion they are really tough to bend back to get the old bellows out. On the Autographic No1 I remember using some dental picks and pliers. It wasn't easy and I did mess up the surface of the film gate that requried some sanding and repainting.
I would love to devise some type of dedicated prying tool to bend the tabs. Something that won't mess up the film gate OR mess up the old bellows. I think it might be important to save the old bellows (if they aren't in horrible condition) to attempt to restore them at some future point as replacement bellows become impossible to find.
Also, the bellows attachment on the lens end (the lens standard) is by rivets, which you have to drill out and then reattach. On the Autographic No1 I just used some small screws from other cameras. In the meantime I found at the hobby store in the train section very small brass nuts and bolts. |
