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Alexmayer
Tinkerer
Username: Alexmayer
Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 13, 2013 - 08:46 pm: | 
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Lots of things seem to lock up on my early Bell & Howell Canonet 17 (That's right, no QL, no GIII).
What I find is strangest is that based on where the ISO lever is set it seems to prevent the shutter speed selection dial from rotating past a certain speed. With each step past ISO 50 the shutter speed selection range shortens by a stop. (Ie at ISO 100 the dial won't rotate past a half second at 200 it won't go past a fourth of a second). On manual I should be able to use any combination of settings I want.
Additionally rotating the aperture ring doesn't change anything in the lens, and the self timer lever is stuck halfway in its travel. The shutter doesn't fire either. I'm assuming this model would fire at some speed without a battery.
It all seems bad and I feel like I'm in for quite struggle, but I guess I'm just wondering which end of the lens to open first haha. |
Neuberger
Tinkerer
Username: Neuberger
Post Number: 89
Registered: 01-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 16, 2013 - 06:25 am: |
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As far as I know, the B&H Canonet 17 is technically identical to the Canonet 17 that was marketed through Canon.
This refers to the model of the Canonet 17 (CdS-metered, no QL, no GIII): what you describe is by no means strange, as all speeds incl. B can be used if you push that small silver pin between the self timer lever and the flash mode selector switch (X - M). What seems strange is a design flaw of not only the Canonets, you can find the same restriction of aperture/speed combination in classical Konicas, for example.
From what you write it seems you are not very familiar with the camera, without the shutter being cocked rotating the aperture ring of course does not "change anything in the lens". If the shutter is cocked movement of the diaphragm blades can be observed with the film door open.
If the shutter does not fire your camera probably suffers from oily/gummed up shutter blades. If the self-timer lever was cocked while the shutter could not fire the whole thing is jammed and needs more than just cleaning of the blades.
This is not a very serious problem. Do not force anything. A more than fifty year old camera needs some attention. Nobody would expect from a car of the same vintage to perform according to the instruction booklet.
Usually you go in from the front.
Doing so is only advisable if this camera is NOT your initial repair project.
Metering is possible only in AUTO, inspecting and or repairing the needle-trap mechanism requires taking off the top.
The camera most probably uses a type of discontinued battery which can easily be replaced however by modern batteries (different size, equivalent voltage) using an adaptor. |
Alexmayer
Tinkerer
Username: Alexmayer
Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 17, 2013 - 07:33 pm: |
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I appreciate the education on this incarnation of the Canonet. I suspect the self timer was cocked when the shutter was already inoperable due to gummy blades. If this is the case will the self timer mechanism just need to be cleaned to coax it back to its resting position? Or will the mechanism require a more extensive disassembly? |
Alexmayer
Tinkerer
Username: Alexmayer
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 17, 2013 - 07:37 pm: |
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My main goal is to restore the camera so it can operate mechanically. I'd like to save restoring the camera's automatic functions for a different time, if the problems can be tackled independently of each other. |
Neuberger
Tinkerer
Username: Neuberger
Post Number: 91
Registered: 01-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 19, 2013 - 07:40 am: |
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You can find more info on the Canonets in the virtual Canon Camera Museum, what's missing there is that Canon in its early days, like its competitors, sold their products outside Japan through retailer chains like Sears, Boots, etc.
Not considering minor cosmetic differences, your B&H C17 is most probably very similar to the Canonet S (1,7/45) or the early (bigger) types of Canonets, with or without QL. They were all equipped with the Copal-SV shutter. A similar Copal shutter is detailedly described here: http://www.daniel.mitchell.name/cameras/index.php?page=copalmxv
In Daniel Mitchell's articles about different shutter types you can study what is inside and find out for yourself if you are going to start that repair project. The early Canonets are not just ideal targets for learning, but by far less complicated than the end of the line QIII's.
With the right tools (look here: https://kyp.hauslendale.com/classics/repairtools.html)
almost anyone can become a successful tinkerer.
Try to collect as much info as possible about how to clean gummed up blades WITHOUT stripping down the shutter (use this forum's "Search" function and read the "Articles").
Also this excellent source illustrates what will have to be done (different camera, same procedure): http://feuerbacher.net/photo/frame.html?repair/KonicaAutoS2/KonicaAutoS2.html~Ma in.
The point is that at a certain point you are alone with the camera and a full tutorial accompanying your repair is not possible.
It is, of course, a matter of time and perserverance to tackle all the problems at once, especially if they are interlinked, I would not want to open a camera a second time. The "Auto" mode of those cameras is by no means a mysterious thing, this quote from wikipedia reveals all the secrets: "In the beginnings of exposure automation (ca. 1960) the instruments were even used for setting exposure settings directly, mainly for automatic aperture setting. A simple method for this was called "trap-needle"; pressing the shutter release mechanically gripped the meter needle, then moved an aperture control up to hit the needle, setting the aperture to a value controlled by the meter."
It is as simple as that, but, quite naturally turns out to be somewhat tricky in reality. In the Canonets the system is under the top and its function can be studied without difficulty, the delicate meter-needle is counterbalanced and all work on the metering system calls for vivid attention.
Please note that a defective classical camera is worth a lot more than a plastic box full of levers, springs and lenses.
When I opened one of my similarly jammed Canonets, I screwed off the retainer ring of the front bezel, desoldered the CdS-cell, unscrewed the front part of the lens. As soon as I slightly ticked the gummed up blades with a toothpick, the selftimer continued to run down its course, the shutter snapped open and closed, and I could cock the shutter, and when I pushed the button ... nothing happened, until I ticked the shutter and the whole thing started again. Cleaning the shutter was a must, followed by a CLA, clean, lube and adjust.
Cleaning is often enough, and inappropriately lubing will only make things worse, shutter blades have to be absolutely dry and clean without any residue of oil. Leave adjustment for later and do not try to reinvent the wheel, so to speak. The engineers knew what they were doing, so don't change anything. It is good advice to take step-by-step notes of your repair process, so that you can put everything together again in thr reverse order. |
Alexmayer
Tinkerer
Username: Alexmayer
Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 19, 2013 - 09:56 am: |
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Thanks for the sources. I've disassembled the front of the lens as much as I dare to and found the mangled racheting spring that was jammed inside the self timer escapement. I'd need a parts camera to replace the torn spring.
Unfortunately swabbing the blades from this point didn't free the mechanism, so I figure I'll have to go in the back. I've removed the shutter and lens assembly from the rest of the camera body (it comes off in a neat little modular package) and I've reached the point where my spanner is no longer small enough to fit and work safely. I'll be manufacturing two specifically for those back retaining rings.
Against all advice this is my first repair, but I'm not too concerned about ruining the camera. The price wasn't steep and I probably won't resell so it's a good challenge to learn the ropes. |
Neuberger
Tinkerer
Username: Neuberger
Post Number: 92
Registered: 01-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 19, 2013 - 10:20 am: |
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One has to start somewhere, and if the camera is not of any sentimenmtal value, why not using it in an initial repair adventure?
I wish you good luck with your project, parts of older Canonets, even from cameras of other brands of the same age with similar shutters will interchange. I found it often easier to swap whole units (selftimer assembly, shutter clockwork) than installing single springs, serrated shafts, cogwheels, etc. his is possible, as this is time consuming and takes a lot of patience, so leave your mobile outside and turn off the doorbell. |
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