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Ben_hutcherson
Tinkerer
Username: Ben_hutcherson
Post Number: 33
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 10:58 am: | 
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Having just recently taken an interest in medium format, I've been buying Rolleis and have encountered problems with two of the ones I've bought.
The first is a Rolleicord III with a 3.5 Xenar. On this camera, the shutter cocking/release lever flops freely from side to side. I can feel a slight amount of resistance at the right most side. After pulling the lever all the way to the right, if I push it all the way to the left, the shutter will make a very light click and the blades will wiggle a little bit but not open. The small amount of resistance on the lever is nothing like that of my working Va. Also, when moving the shutter speed lever, I can hear some faint springy type sounds, but not a whole lot of resistance. I plan to open it up this weekend and see if I can figure out what's wrong with it, but in the mean time, does anyone have any suggestions? For what I paid for this camera, I'm not concerned about messing something up, but if I could get it working, it would be great.
The second is an Automat I which has a broken waist level finder. I don't have this one in hand yet, but the seller has said that the mirror that allows focusing with the sports finder is broken, preventing the finder from closing. Realizing that I'll lose the sports finder focusing spot, would it be possible to remove the WLF from my Rolleicord III and install it on the Automat? If it's not an exact fit, is there anything I can easily do to make it fit? I'm not concerned about cosmetics so much as functionality.
Thanks,
Ben |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 230
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 07:18 pm: |
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In your Rolleicord, it sounds like the shutter blades are stuck together. You don't feel resistance on cocking because the shutter is already cocked, and it won't fire because the blades can't move. There might be another cause of a blockage, but stuck blades is common. You can quickly verify that once you have a lens cell off by lifting the top blade with a sewing needle - if the blades are stuck together the shutter will fire as soon as you break the seal by lifting the top blade.
The sports finder in an Automat is bloody useless anyway - if you can just remove the hood mirror so that it will close, you're as well off as if you'd fixed it. The 'cord hood should fit, I think all of the fixed hoods are interchangeable. But I wouldn't cannibalize the 'cord for the automat if you can just pull out the offending mirror. |
Lucas
Tinkerer
Username: Lucas
Post Number: 13
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:29 am: |
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I took apart the hood and replaced the mirror in the sportsfinder on my Rolleicord III only to find out what Rick says, it is completely useless. The image is no longer reversed, but upside down. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 233
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 05:04 am: |
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yep....... |
Ben_hutcherson
Tinkerer
Username: Ben_hutcherson
Post Number: 34
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 03:00 pm: |
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Thank you both for your responses.
I'll see what I can do about getting the Automat hood to close. It will be next week before I have it in hand(Ebay seller that wouldn't take Paypal), so I'll see if removing the mirror lets the hood close then.
Rick,
Your explanation on the Rolleicord shutter makes since. It's almost as if the shutter blades start to move, but then get caught and the shutter is prevented from opening fully. If the shutter opens as soon as I lift one of the blades, what will need to be done to keep the shutter working? Will a full overhaul be in order?
Also, how much needs to be done just to get to the shutter blades? If I remove the retaining ring around the front element, will I be able to reach the shutter blades?
Thanks,
Ben |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 234
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 05:07 pm: |
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You first reach the blades by removing the front lens cell. If the shutter suddenly fires when you poke at them with a needle, then it's just a cleaning job. The really right way is to open the shutter from the front, remove the entire chassis from the housing and then clean the blades one at a time with lighter fluid on a cotton swab.... but you may be able to clean them in place by swabbing the part you can reach and operating the shutter to work the solvent into the inaccessible areas. If you do it this way, spray electronics cleaner is better than lighter fluid because it dries faster (CRC brand "QD Electronic Cleaner" is good). It's best to have removed both the front and rear cells before doing this so you keep the glass clean.
If the shutter does NOT snap to life when you poke the blades, then you have another problem. In this case you will have to open the shutter and find where the obstruction is. If you haven't worked on leaf shutters before, there are some notes here and at other sites on the web: http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-55.html
It's certainly not a comprehensive lesson but hopefully it will give you an idea of what you're looking at. |
Ben_hutcherson
Tinkerer
Username: Ben_hutcherson
Post Number: 35
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 20, 2007 - 09:58 pm: |
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Rick,
You were, of course, correct.
I can see a big spot of I don't know what on the very bottom blade. Even though I have everything moving again pretty well, the shutter still hangs on this spot at the lower speeds. It seems to snap open and closed really well at the higher speeds.
Surprisingly enough, the timing mechanism for the slow speeds seems to be in pretty good shape-once I prodded it and got the blades open with it set to 1 second, the timer seemed to run really well and the blades stayed open what seemed like right at a second.
I'll clean up the blades tomorrow after I recell the high-power Ni-Cd pack for my F-1 and see what happens.
Anyway, thanks again for your help. I look forward to having a second working Rolleicord.
Ben |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 241
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 11:13 am: |
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Good news!
This problem is common in Canonets, which mercifully seem to be very resistant to developing sluggish escapements - their shutters are virtually impossible to service internally, so cleaning the exposed blades is about all you can do with them... |
Ben_hutcherson
Tinkerer
Username: Ben_hutcherson
Post Number: 36
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 08:10 pm: |
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Okay, I bought some CRC electronics today and went to work on the shutter.
It took several cleaning attempts, but I think that I have everything straightened out pretty well now.
Now, I just need to get the peeling leatherette reattached and get the door to the point where I don't need a screwdriver to pry it open.
Rick,
Any idea when you'll have more of those focusing screens in? I'll definitely be wanting one for the Automat, and possibly for this Rolleicord as well.
Thanks,
Ben |
Lucas
Tinkerer
Username: Lucas
Post Number: 14
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 01:13 pm: |
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Leave the leather off for a few weeks, sometimes if you let the camera sit for a week or two after cleaning it gums up again if you did not get all the goo out.
This saves you having to peel it off again and possibly ruining it. I had a rolleicord V that I got up and running (with Rick s help) , and as long as I used it, it was fine. The moment it sat on the shelf for more than a week I found out I did not clean it enough and had to start all over.
I have one of Rick s screens in my Automat and I was just thinking today as I was out photographing, how happy I am with it. |
Ben_hutcherson
Tinkerer
Username: Ben_hutcherson
Post Number: 38
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 08:11 pm: |
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Well, I picked up some HP5+ earlier today, shot it this afternoon, and just developed it a few minutes ago.
As the negatives are drying as I speak, I haven't yet had a chance to look them over well. A quick glance indicated that they turned out quite nicely, though, and seemed sharp enough. I'll give them a good look tomorrow after they've dried and see what the results are, but a quick once over indicated that they turned out quite nicely. I only used the shutter at 1/125 and 1/250, though, so I'll need to try out the other speeds on a subsequent roll.
I'll run some transparencies through it this weekend and see what happens. Given that the black and whites turned out decently, though, I'm guessing that I'll get decent results from the transparencies.
Thanks again for all the help. |
Ben_hutcherson
Tinkerer
Username: Ben_hutcherson
Post Number: 39
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 08:32 pm: |
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Rick,
If I may please pick your brain again, I thought of one little problem which I forgot to mention above.
At the beginning of the roll, there's about 2-3 frames worth of blank film. While this doesn't concern me in and of itself, the last frame is dangerously close to the end of the roll-in fact, there's less space between the last frame and the end of the roll than between most of the frames. Had I notched the corners to load on the real, I probably would have cut off part of the film.
All 12 frames are present, though.
I loaded properly, with the arrow aligned with the red dots and kept the tension on the roll while winding to the dots. Thus, I'm guessing that the automatic spacer and counter mechanism is out of adjustment. What do I need to do to adjust this?
Thanks,
Ben |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 248
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 04:56 am: |
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Hi Ben!
My guess is that the counter is sticky and failed to drop into the notch at the start. I don't have sketches for getting at it on the 'cord, but it's a matter of peeling the leather back and finding the screws for the side panel. the focus knob probably has to come off but i think the wind knob may be able to stay in place.
My screen supplier said that he was expecting screens by "Labor Day" (hopefully this meant May 1 and not early September). I've never had this problem before, and I now have about 9 people waiting..... I'll remember not to let the stack get this low before reordering next time |
Lucas
Tinkerer
Username: Lucas
Post Number: 15
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 05:49 am: |
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I had similar problems with the film advance and those were caused by the counterdisk rubbing very lightly on the side panel. The side panel is very soft and bends easily.It might be slightly pushed inwards. As the window is open there might also be dirt in the mechanism. |
Ben_hutcherson
Tinkerer
Username: Ben_hutcherson
Post Number: 40
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 02:03 pm: |
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Okay, I'm wondering now if the film starting problem was just a fluke with that one roll.
I took the backing paper from that first roll, rolled it back up, and loaded it into the camera just as if it had been a real roll of film.
When the winding knob stopped, I opened the back. The middle 1 wasn't quite in the center of the frame as it would have been had this been a ruby window advance camera, but it wasn't too far off the center.
I'll try another roll this weekend and see what happens, but all seems to be well at least according to the backing paper.
Thanks again for all of your all's help. |
Lucas
Tinkerer
Username: Lucas
Post Number: 16
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 12:54 am: |
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Take the back off the camera put in an empty spool. Fully depress the tab on the right side and wind on the film advance. You should distinctly hear the latch drop at "1" . If you then release the tab on the back of the camera (that is otherwise pushed in by the back) the counter disk should spring back to 0. If you do not hear the larch drop there is dirt in the mechanism. If the disk does not spring back it is probably rubbing on something. I personally have never encountered a broken spring in the countermechanism. |
Lucas
Tinkerer
Username: Lucas
Post Number: 17
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 01:03 am: |
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Oh , forgot. With only the backing paper the silver wheel that sits on the film covers less distance as the spool is thinner than one with film and backing paper. This might have caused the frame not to line up. |
Ben_hutcherson
Tinkerer
Username: Ben_hutcherson
Post Number: 42
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 07:13 pm: |
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Thank you all again for your help.
Now that I have the Automat in hand, I have a couple of problems with it.
First of all, the auto loading mechanism seems to be off to the point that even the thickness of just the backing paper will cause it to set. I loaded a dummy roll, and got through about 1 1/2 turns of the crank with the back shut before the counter started. When I opened the back after it stopped, the film wasn't any where near close to starting.
How do I need to go about adjusting this?
Also, I ventured into the shutter and pulled the slow speed escapement for cleaning. When I removed the cocking rack, I managed to not note where the spring was connected. As I'm reassembling, where does this spring need to hook? I looked at Mr. Oleson's site, but couldn't manage to find anything specifically dealing with this issue.
Thanks,
Ben |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 256
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 09:05 pm: |
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Hi Ben:
If you look at this photo http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/28c-compur.jpg you can see the main spring (noted at the lower left corner). You can't see the anchors in the photo, but hopefully this will get you close enough to find them. This camera is a 2.8C, it should be pretty close to the Automat I would think. |
Ben_hutcherson
Tinkerer
Username: Ben_hutcherson
Post Number: 43
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 09:54 pm: |
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Rick,
Thanks for the response. I think I figured it out-there was a washer with a hook on it that fit on one of the screw holes for the slow speed escapement.
I still haven't gotten the slow speed escapement placed quite right, but I'll keep tinkering with it.
Any suggestions about what to do about automat mechanism?
By the way, I got the hood to fold down after I removed the sports finder mirror. The reflex mirror is the worst I've ever seen on any camera-it looks like it was cleaned with sandpaper. I have a parts Rolleicord Va on the way, so I may try and swap out the mirror.
Thanks again for all your help,
Ben |
Wayne
Tinkerer
Username: Wayne
Post Number: 4
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 05:28 am: |
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Hi Ben
I have some scans of insructions for adjusting the film feeler rollers. If you want to email me
(ela17590 at bigpond dot net dot au) I could send them to you.
Cheers
Wayne |
Ben_hutcherson
Tinkerer
Username: Ben_hutcherson
Post Number: 47
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 03:54 pm: |
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Wayne,
Thanks again for sending me the scans. I was able to get mine back in working condition this afternoon.
I might, though, add one note for anyone who might be attempting to do this in the future.
The service manual advises that the feeler mechanism be adjusted for the thickness of the backing paper and tape. I primarily use Fuji films in medium format, and Fuji uses a much larger piece of tape than most other manufactures(or at least Kodak and Ilford). If the camera is set for the tape, the mechanism will unlatch too soon for the camera to be able to crank past the tape, and you'll end up with tape over half the first frame. Thus, I adjusted such that the thickness of the backing paper+film+tape. It still stops a little bit early with Fuji(although well off the tape) and exactly right with Kodak and Ilford. I would suggest to anyone adjusting their own camera that they take this same route if they ever plan to use anything from Fuji.
I also acquired a parts Rolleicord Va which was missing the taking lens. I swapped the nearly pristine mirror in this camera with horribly scratched(i.e. missing big chunks of silver) mirror in the Automat. I also swapped the original plastic gridded screen from the Rolleicord with the glass screen in the Automat. It brightened up the view considerably, I think mostly due to the new mirror.
Thanks again for everyone's help with this. I'm glad to now be up to three fully functional Rolleis. |
Wayne
Tinkerer
Username: Wayne
Post Number: 5
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 07:20 pm: |
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Great news Ben! Enjoy that Rollei. |
