| Author |
Message |
    
Krafty5260
Tinkerer
Username: Krafty5260
Post Number: 17
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 07:01 pm: | 
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Okay, this has been bugging me for some time and now. I'm really steamed.
I don't know why I'm more steamed now. Maybe it's because I'm at my
computer with time to be steamed.
Anyway, when I see cameras listed on Ebay that are body only and in
another listing is the lens from the same seller, listed coicidentally,
that I suspect was separated from the listed body, it just pisses me off beyond all
measure.
Can anyone give me a reason why this is an ethical practice? I try to be
reasonable, but I was stung by this scheme with my first Spotmatic - never again.
No lens, no sale, no way. That bloody body came with a lens. If the lens
isn't included, I want to see the lens with a bullet hole in the center of
it. Then, I'll understand. Otherwise, it just seems like a creepy, underhanded practice
of double dipping just because parts are separable. Some day I expect to see a listing for a body only, no knobs or levers, and find these parts available under separate auction listings.
Anyway, I just wanted to get that off my chest. I'm done now - feel much
better. Am I alone in my opinion?
thanks gang,
Michael |
Nigeldun
Tinkerer
Username: Nigeldun
Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 07:50 pm: |
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You're right, of course. In defense of the practice, I will only say that a lens for a Rollei SL35, say, or a 90's Nikon film SLR, is worth several times the value of the body, and sometimes one feels that it's too much to ask of a buyer to imagine that he can buy the whole camera if he just wants the lens. That's why the biggest bargains are often found in the lot offerings, where you can get often the lot for less than a single one of the cameras. |
Dragunov
Tinkerer
Username: Dragunov
Post Number: 61
Registered: 10-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 09:26 pm: |
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also- whilst snooping around for a Nikon F, 'tis much cheaper th get a dead one with no head or lens than one with both. i suspect i'd get a better deal if i bought them separately.
but then when they separate head, body, back and lens... grr... |
Adrian
Tinkerer
Username: Adrian
Post Number: 157
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 02:48 am: |
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Oh. I was thinking about selling a Nikon F3 body as "spares or repair" to help fund a lens for its working brother. Or would I be forgiven, as I've never actually had a lens?
Adrian |
Wernerjb
Tinkerer
Username: Wernerjb
Post Number: 295
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 03:02 am: |
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The vast majority of people selling things on ebay are usually not the least interested in what becomes of cameras ripped apart. It is the end of all ethics when money comes in view. And even usually honest people sometimes reduce themselves to that one dimension: maximum profit. So this is the most likely thing to happen and from my knowledge of that "virtual marketplace" (a euphemistic & romantic image throughout!) it is kind of wishful thinking to expect sellers to be ethical. What you get is: "sold as is", "have no idea of whether it works, as I am no camera buff", "not tested", "it was ok when it was stuffed away", etc.
Ebay, that is money matters, and that's that.
Which will probably very soon put me off from there for good. |
Fredso0
Tinkerer
Username: Fredso0
Post Number: 3
Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 07:06 am: |
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Interesting views, however my experience with used photographic equipment bought from e-bay in the UK has been good, but it only extends to inexpensive purchases. I have found that some "hobby" sellers give pessimistic descriptions, perhaps to avoid complaints, or to ensure positive feedback, or perhaps they just want to give buyers a fair deal! My last purchase was a 1946 Kodak 35RF for less than £12(about $24?) described as only suitable for spares, but now taking good quality photographs after routine maintenance.
Looking very carefully at a sellers record on e-bay (and reading between the lines) will often give an indication of the level of risk you take if you buy from them?
Neil |
Glenn
Tinkerer
Username: Glenn
Post Number: 311
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 06:35 pm: |
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I fail to see why people get hot under the collar, when sellers split up kit on eBay. If I sell on eBay, or in any other auction for that matter, I want to obtain a fair price for the goods. I am not a damned charity, and unlike other auctions, the eBay 'reserve' system has a definite negative result on getting a sale. People think they will automatically get a cheap bargain and are not keen to bid on items with a reserve. Start at £0.99 and bids will pile on - trouble is you run the risk of not getting your expected/valuation price. Therefore you split the kit and hedge your bet. Works every time for me, and I always sell good/working items.
If you don't like the practise, give the seller a miss. If splitting items up was actually doing a person harm, or was in some other way detrimental, I could see the point of complaining. In a world of ever increasing Regulation - We still have a choice, on how we conduct some aspects of our daily lives. |
Wernerjb
Tinkerer
Username: Wernerjb
Post Number: 296
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 03:20 am: |
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As always, opinions differ, c'est la vie!
I basically agree, people can do what they find appropriate in any aspect of their daily lives. Thank you for the reminder. So there is usually nothing wrong with splitting items. And, of course, there is neither no reasonable argument against a seller's intention to obtain the best price they can get nor would anyone buy a complete toolkit if it is just a hammer they need.
But my reading of the issue is different situations spark off different interpretations. If a classical SLR is deprived of its lens, neckstrap, ERC, lens cover plus UV Filter, etc., and all these items are offered separately, those interested in vintage reflex cameras are certainly not amused. Especially if a long-awaited item eventually shows up in an auction it is too bad to take one's choice and give that camera (and its seller) a miss. |
Rlc
Tinkerer
Username: Rlc
Post Number: 48
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 10:31 am: |
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Glenn has addressed this issue in the most precise and correct language possible IMHO.
As for me I am still boycotting eBay due to their outrageous increase in seller fees and the discriminatory position against sellers.
They are feeling the pinch, from what I understand. I see they recently reduced their work force by 1500 employees due to the decling activity brought on by their arbitrary and dictatorial rulings.
Richard. |
Steve_s
Tinkerer
Username: Steve_s
Post Number: 119
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 01:34 pm: |
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In general, I can't see that it is anything to get worked up about if a seller separates camera and lens! After all, it is not an irreversible change. Put a suitable lens on the body and it is back where it started.
Admittedly, there are exceptions. I have a Praktina with Biotar which came with its original receipt quoting both serial numbers. I would consider it wrong to separate this lens from the camera, even though it was severely infested with fungus, and even after cleaning is definitely "optically challenged". If I get another lens for taking pictures, I will still "store" the original lens on the camera.
If you don't want to buy the camera and lens separately, wait till a camera comes up complete. There will probably be one along next week! |
Paul_ron
Tinkerer
Username: Paul_ron
Post Number: 103
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2008 - 02:12 pm: |
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Splitting kits is sometimes a sure way to get your stuff sold. Where if sold as a complete kit it would be too expensive for most people to even consider. Also the seller makes much more money on a split kit because he's selling it above it's actual worth to begin with.
The best thing to do is avoid flea-bay great deals. Most of those great deals keeps reapir shops busy. When buying something like 30 year old cameras unseen, expect to get a junker some tinkerer has fooled with and jury rigged it to just barely work.
I've seen too many DIY lenses n bodies hit my shop from flea bay, yet I've seen some genuine "great" deals too but they are far n few between.
So buyer beware. |
Alex
Tinkerer
Username: Alex
Post Number: 51
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 04:09 am: |
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I'm one of those who don't see this as a major issue. I collect a couple of models, and I have more standard 50mm lenses for them than I know what to do with. Even my wife, who doesn't understand my photo-passion, has a point when she asks why I need the f/1.8, f/1.9 and f/2 versions of the same lens, in triplicate for some lenses. I only bid what it's worth to me, and if the body/lens combination goes for more than I'm prepared to pay for the body only, that's the way the market works.
Ebay, like the good old days, ain't what it used to be, if it ever was. There are still bargains to be had, but I tend to restrict my bidding now to dealers I know and trust.
Alex |
Krafty5260
Tinkerer
Username: Krafty5260
Post Number: 19
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 06:30 pm: |
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Alex,
Any extra collapsible Tessar 3.5 lenses for Contax II among your surplus?
thanks,
Michael |
Alex
Tinkerer
Username: Alex
Post Number: 54
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2008 - 03:15 am: |
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Sadly, no, Michael, though I wish I could help! My wife has told me in no uncertain terms that no new lens or camera is to come in to the house unless something else goes out first. She's made it perfectly clear that that something could be me if I don't comply.
Camera-collecting is one area where I could truly say to my mistress (if I were foolhardy enough to have one) that my wife doesn't understand me...
Alex |
Bill_alexander
Tinkerer
Username: Bill_alexander
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2008 - 10:58 am: |
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Just a few thoughts..I agree it seems repugnant
to collectors to have a Classic Camera sold piece
meal..I go nuts to see a good Camera listed..then
the case..then the manual..then the accessories..
good God..just start the bidding at a higher rate
or reserve..and keep it all together.I FOR ONE
will pass om Ala Cart sales..nuff said |
Jack_fisher
Tinkerer
Username: Jack_fisher
Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 02:27 pm: |
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I have been looking for a good used K1000 body. I don't need the lens, since I have more than one of those. Thus, I prefer a listing with body only.
Jack |
Wernerjb
Tinkerer
Username: Wernerjb
Post Number: 300
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 05:30 am: |
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Before things are escalating out of control I have been turning that question over in my mind and I must admit now, from a more practical point of view, this one aspect is the one that really matters, of course.
Utility is what counts in the first place.
I do feel ashamed and promise to chasten myself not to have realised that a bit earlier. I hope you can all accept my humble apologies for being so unwise.
And I am no longer asking for a replacement front lens glass element for my still imperfect Can GIII 1,7 specimen. Just the splintered off part needs to be replaced.
Can anybody help with a suitable glass chip, please? |
Glenn
Tinkerer
Username: Glenn
Post Number: 327
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 03:37 pm: |
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Rather surprisingly I find that I have the ideal tool to make glass chips. Friends tell me it is called a 'hammer', never realised it would do that. Given time, I am sure that I will be able to produce a suitably shaped chip.
I then guess that I will be able to sell all the separated parts, from the many cameras wrecked, on eBay. This will allow me to make a fat profit on the deal, whilst donating the badly needed chip to you. |
Wernerjb
Tinkerer
Username: Wernerjb
Post Number: 301
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 09:41 am: |
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And I can really get it for FREE? That is almost unbelievable!
You know I had been trying to make glass chips myself, and although I know how to use a hammer I never got a chip the right shape and size.
So I am really glad to know to have you, an expert, on my side, catching we when I am falling. Thank you so much for your friendly offer. |
Frankl
Tinkerer
Username: Frankl
Post Number: 50
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 03:53 pm: |
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Things could be worse.... I bought this on ebay and, in the photo it is not obvious that the lens is NOT THERE (at least on my monitor). When I contacted the seller, his response was that I should have asked and, it was sold "as is".... Ya' gotta' love it....
Frank
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Frankl
Tinkerer
Username: Frankl
Post Number: 51
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 04:00 pm: |
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Follow up on last post:
I save this image in "My Pictures" in My documents, as a constant reminder that I must be more careful. Also, to tag on to the subject matter in this thread; when I see that it's obvious that the seller has split up the "goods", I just move on. We can certainly have our opinion as to the "ethics" but that will not stop the practice, right or wrong. Those sellers just don't end up in my "Favorite Sellers" list... 
Have a GREAT day!
Frank |
Alex
Tinkerer
Username: Alex
Post Number: 58
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 01:44 am: |
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That's bad luck Frank, and a duplicitous seller. Our experiences on Ebay give us all sorts of rules to try and make sure we don't get stung again. As in your example above, one of my rules now is not to buy any photo items where the item is poorly photographed, particularly if it's someone who sells a fair bit of photo stuff. You'd expect someone who's photo savvy to be able to take a half-decent picture. It's remarkable what a difference it makes. I once sold a (fully working and accurate) Weston V for almost £70, for which I'd paid £20. I made sure the pictures were clean, clear, properly lit, and showed every detail a photographer would be interested in. Other Weston auctions at the same time (there were about four others) never made a third of that. Of course, in your case above, the seller's intention was concealment, not revelation.
Alex |
Frankl
Tinkerer
Username: Frankl
Post Number: 52
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:53 am: |
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Yes Alex, I do the same thing when I sell an item. I am very careful to accurately describe as well. I seldom sell anything but when I do, I usually get very few questions and I also do OK with the price. I just try and treat other as I would like to be treated and, that seems to work just fine. I like to "believe" that the vast majority feel the same way
Regards,
Frank.... |
Glenn
Tinkerer
Username: Glenn
Post Number: 330
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 06:21 am: |
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I know that nobody will agree with me on this: I would rather sell an item without photographs, relying on a complete written description and a 100% no quibble refund guarantee. Now I realise that this only works for well known/common items, not good for a one off or antique/rare item. However it has worked for me, and got good prices on 70s/80s and later photography gear.
Generally speaking I have never bought an item on eBay, where the pictures gave 100% indication of cosmetic condition. In some instances 'mint' was a term better used to describe a sweet, in other cases the item was truly fabulous Obviously illustrations give no indication of function, unless they show major parts missing, and the dishonest are not going to show you that. To properly record an image that shows nicks/dints or damage, takes time and dare I say it, a certain skill. Having produced 1000's of such images during my working life, I just cannot be bothered for the sake of making a bit more cash on eBay. That and the rigmarole of listing the items, means I tend to use an established Auction House instead of the DIY route for 'valuable' items. The more mundane stuff I would rather give to person who has a need for it, and who will put it to good use.I just stipulate that they do the same if/when the item is not needed by them. Doing this has enabled some of my son's friends to sample and really enjoy working with film, after only ever using digital. That to me is worth more than a 'tenner' profit in the wallet! Mind you; one of them did then buy a nice Hasselblad outfit from me - I'm not that big a philanthropist!! |
Glenn
Tinkerer
Username: Glenn
Post Number: 331
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 06:41 am: |
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Werner,
I guess nobody is going to expand our little 'subplot'. Shame really; as I thought the little excursion would have brought an air of gravitas to the proceedings, and could run to a few chapters.
By the way, using a hammer is not as easy as it looks, all I have to show at the moment is a very bruised thumb. No chips I am sorry to say!
Glenn. |
Frankl
Tinkerer
Username: Frankl
Post Number: 54
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 11:09 am: |
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Good input Glenn. I agree on the part of it being a "pain" to list stuff on ebay. Everytime I get the urge to do so, I seem to procrastinate for that very reason. Consequently, I still own too many cameras.... If and when I do get around to it, I usually include "shots" of all angles/sides of an item and that takes forever, for the reasons you mentioned. To get four good shots, I usually end up having to do it all about four or five times but, my belief is "a picture is worth a thousand words".... Anyway, The real important part of this post is that I AM pretty good with a hammer and if you would like a free sample bag of chips, I will send them directly....
Have a GREAT day!
Frank.... |
Alex
Tinkerer
Username: Alex
Post Number: 59
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 01:22 pm: |
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Frank, I think you should be a little cagey over Glenn's offer of free lens chips. Free they may be, but the postage will be GBP 14.75. You don't graze on Ebay for long without picking up that little trick.
Alex |
Frankl
Tinkerer
Username: Frankl
Post Number: 55
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 02:22 pm: |
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Alex, Please don't tell all.... You are "cutting into" my profits now. Of course, I realize that you guys in the UK need to stick together... |
Drako
Tinkerer
Username: Drako
Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:34 pm: |
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I just made my first ebay camera purchase (Minolta XE-7, a.k.a. XE-1 in Europe) and was relieved that it did not come with a standard lens. I already have three Minolta lenses, including a 55mm f/1.7, so why would I want another?
Well, I do have the XD-11 on my "to purchase" list and an MD lens would come in handy at that future date, but then again a MD would not have historical integrity on the older XE-7.
On the other hand, when looking through closed ebay auctions, camera kits (one or more bodies and multiple lenses and accessories) seem to go for very good discounts over buying each item separately. So, buying a system at auction could be a good way to get started in a particular brand. I'd like to get into Nikon sometime and this may be the way to get started. |
Glenn
Tinkerer
Username: Glenn
Post Number: 333
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 06:39 pm: |
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Alex, Frankl.
Thanks for your contributions to the 'sub plot'.
The good news is that the thumb survived and I have mastered the hammer. However the dining table top is now ruined, I did not expect this to happen! Wonder if I can find a spare on eBay?
Glenn |
Frankl
Tinkerer
Username: Frankl
Post Number: 56
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 10:04 pm: |
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Glenn....
I have one but I don't know anything about them and have not tried eating at it either. I am selling this for a friend who is selling his table collection. It's clean and the legs are in good shape. The extension leaves are also included and work fine. I am selling it "as is" due to it's age. No returns....
Frank... |
Alex
Tinkerer
Username: Alex
Post Number: 61
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 02:58 am: |
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I just saw an Ebay auction for an M8 with Summicron-M 50. It says the lens is chipped, but the glass looks perfect to me. Yet another case of Ebay misrepresentation, I fear. How can sellers get away with this?
Alex |
Frankl
Tinkerer
Username: Frankl
Post Number: 57
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 09:05 am: |
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Alex,
I see similar "descriptions" all the time. Things like; "Mint, shutter works on all speeds, seems to stick on slow speeds", "works perfect, have not tried it with film", "excellent condition, film advance lever missing"...... What's up with all that?? One that always amuses me is the description "minty"..... Is that how it tastes? I asked a seller recently "what condition is the lens in; i.e., scratches, dents, cloudy, fungus or none of the above"... I asked the same question four times and got four answers that had nothing to do with the lens... I didn't ask a fifth time and I didn't buy either.... Ebay doesn't care..... buyer beware!
Frank.... |
Glenn
Tinkerer
Username: Glenn
Post Number: 336
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 03:56 pm: |
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Frank,
Sold! The 'Legs in good shape' make this a must have. I am now negotiating a second mortgage to pay the packing and carriage costs.
Glenn.
PS. This warped sense of humour must be an age thing. I also entered this world in 1943. |
Frankl
Tinkerer
Username: Frankl
Post Number: 58
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 06:46 pm: |
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Hey Glenn, it's not "warped".... it's "mature". The fact is, "we" realize the "reality" of it all and suddenly, the truth becomes humor... If you don't laugh, you'll cry... Come on over, we'll have a pint or two and sort it all out.....
PS: I have you beat because when I posted my bio, I "was" 64.... Born in 42' and, now 65!
Frank... |
Glenn
Tinkerer
Username: Glenn
Post Number: 337
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2008 - 02:36 am: |
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Frank,
Very true, and if only it were possible. Sorting out over a pint is THE mature way.
The 'magi'c day for me is 27th September. Still what is supposed to alter heaven only knows. Its like all the other so called 'mile stones' - 30, 40 etc ad nauseam. All I know is that the bloody Government will take far too much tax from my meager pension! It really is true that the present Government are making a new class of 'poor' people. Those that put aside provision for a modest pension. If you ain't got it - you can claim it, if you're rich - you're in clover. If you tried to make modest provision - you are up to your neck in the proverbial, and being told to stick your head under!!
This is getting too serious, I need a pint! I'll have one for you as well.
Glenn.
PS. Like on this forum, you do 'meet' some nice people on eBay. Its one redeeming feature I guess? |
Alex
Tinkerer
Username: Alex
Post Number: 62
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2008 - 04:03 am: |
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Glenn,
Very occasionally, you do indeed meet a decent few on Ebay. One chap sold me a Yashica 70-230 zoom. The following day, I noticed that the Paypal payment had been refunded, before the lens had been sent out. I was initially piqued, because I suspected that he'd sold it more profitably elsewhere (the reverse situation happened to me with a supposedly respected camera dealer, whom I no longer use). He wrote to say that as he was packing it, he noticed that the aperture blades were sticking, only returning slowly. I thought it decent of him, and said so. In reply, he noted that I lived not far from him (the adjacent town), and invited me to drop by and pick it up for free. An hour or two in disassembly, and that old standby in a lighter fuel can, and I had a fully working lens again.
I bought a Yashica AF lens from another chap, and wrote to him to say it was in even better ccondition than he'd described. We'd a short correspondence during which I said how highly I thought of Yashica kit. He replied to say he had a spare AF270 body which, though word and well used, was working perfectly with the exception of the built-in flash (this model is notorious for this). He reckoned it'd have a good home with me and offered it to me for nothing but postage at cost. He was as good as his word. I have found these experience so cheering. Like with this forum, it's good to find other enthusiasts who understand the passion a little.
Alex |
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