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Krafty5260
Tinkerer
Username: Krafty5260
Post Number: 28
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2008 - 08:03 am: | 
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Greetings again. Here are more simple minded questions from Oklahoma.
I'm swimming in information about lubrication. I'm ready to put my Petri SCC2.8 back together, but I have no clue what to lubricate. All the discussion I've found is directed at those who know more than I. My experience with lubrication involves buses I work on all day. In vehicles, we only lube every moving part - which is a lot, with tubs of extreme pressure, extreme temperature grease. And we use heavy machinery just to gain access to heavy duty parts.
With my cameras, I'm using very tiny tools to work on pieces I can't even see well without a magnifier light. And, there aren't any zerk fittings.
What would help my simple brain is a rundown on what typically needs lubrication (shutters, escapement, linkages, etc.), and where it's needed (gear teeth, pivot shafts, etc).
For example, the Petri has a version of the Compur leaf shutter with a doodah that moves across an arc at the top of the lens and springs back when the shutter is released. It seemed to work pretty well before disassembly, should it be lubricated? If so, where? And, of course, there's a lot of linkage that connects this to that.
I'm feeling the urge to get in there with an oil can. Is there any primer on camera lubrication? Or is it more secret information passed from one Guild member to another after a vow of silence?
I have some Nye oil, lighter fluid (i know, it's not lubricant), etc. but I'm afraid i'm going to lube the heck out of everything, enough for 100 cameras, and have oil dripping out of my camera without some reasonable advice.
Thanks again. I'm trying to wrap my head around cameras, but some of the procedures are diametrically opposed to what I've done for 30 years.
Michael |
Dgillette4
Tinkerer
Username: Dgillette4
Post Number: 202
Registered: 04-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2008 - 08:53 am: |
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Hello Michael: The first thing you already know, what to use, You can lube all pivots with fine oil just a trace, And on anything that involves heavy torque such as film transport with tdhe heavier grease, I don't lube gear teeth, Especially I keep slow speed timers dry except for trace on pivots. What happens in slow speed timer is that dust etc can get in lube and thicken to a point where it needs to be cleaned off and relubed. Now a movie projector or such is completely different, and can stand more oil. One thing overlooked in cameras though is seal against dirt getting inside. I believe pentax LX model had about the best sealing job. Just dont use gear-moly etc he he he . Good luck ...Don |
Charlie
Tinkerer
Username: Charlie
Post Number: 159
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2008 - 12:35 pm: |
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I would not lubricate shutter or iris diaphragm blades. They should be clean and dry. But I'm no expert, others may disagree. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 573
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2008 - 05:30 pm: |
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No one will disagree with Charlie on that: keep all oils well away from diaphragm and shutter blades, as well as the rings that actuate them. Clean them well with lighter fluid and leave them dry. In shutters, the only place you MAY want oil is a drop or two of Nye Oil on the shafts of the pallet and star wheel, and possibly on the star wheel teeth; even that only if it seems to run rough without it. Unlike vehicles, camera mechanisms don't get miles of heavy loads, and they don't have lots of power available to overcome the stiction of a lubricant, so in the more delicate areas lubricant does more harm than good. The one area that gets heavy lubrication is the focus helical in the lens - I use lithium grease for that, there are also silicones ... you need something with body, that will resist migration into other places (like the diaphragm), but which on the other hand is not tacky so it doesn't make the focusing too stiff. |
Krafty5260
Tinkerer
Username: Krafty5260
Post Number: 29
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2008 - 08:31 pm: |
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Okay, this is just brilliant! Let me try to apply what you're telling me. As a practical example, yesterday, I received a Tower 18B (Mamiya)camera with a leaf style shutter. Everything works, but the shutter is VERY slow and couldn't possibly be accurate, especially at slower speeds. Now, if I understand, the correct way to approach this camera would be to clean the shutter pieces with lighter fluid and put it back together dry.
I've had a fair amount of success using a hair dryer to heat up focus mechanisms that have arrived here frozen (it's worked fabulously two separate times recently - Ricoh519 and Aires Penta 35). Does it make sense to heat the lens with the hair dryer and operate the shutter several times (the rationale being that the camera has probably been sitting for twenty years), or is it wiser to take the lens apart and clean the pieces with lighter fluid?
thanks again,
Michael |
Dgillette4
Tinkerer
Username: Dgillette4
Post Number: 203
Registered: 04-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2008 - 08:58 pm: |
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Some use silicone paste for focus threads just don't use too much. Silicone 300 or whatever replacement is there worked nicely in cold weather. Rick is right about shutter blades and apeature blades a lot of times focus grease can migrate to the apeature mechanism. Also gunslick can be used on focus threads. Now when I buy a Bus you can help me. Don |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 574
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2008 - 04:38 am: |
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Hi Michael:
Heating the shutter will thin the oils that are gluing it together, but unless you take photos in an oven it's going to cool off again and the oils are still in there. They are not supposed to be there, they migrated from other places such as the focus threads and found their way in... the parts need to be clean to work reliably. |
Krafty5260
Tinkerer
Username: Krafty5260
Post Number: 30
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 05, 2008 - 10:24 pm: |
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Hey Rick,
Not to be argumentative, but have you been to Oklahoma in the summer? My sticky shutter should work great for June, July and August. Just kidding, I get the point.
Don, it's funny you should mention buses. I think it's every bit as charming as resurrecting old cameras, just WAY more expensive (think aircraft). I can't tell you how many folks want to buy an old bus and convert it to a motorhome to take the grandkids to Mt. Rushmore. Then, they get a bus for $10K that doesn't have anything wrong with it that $300K wouldn't fix. And, I'm supposed to tell them an engine doesn't really cost $20 grand.
The ratios are smaller, but it sounds a bit like my cameras. Nothing wrong with my Contax that $800-$1000 won't cure.
Thanks guys,
Michael |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 578
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 08:45 pm: |
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Yeah, lived in Texas too.....
: ) = |
Thuggins
Tinkerer
Username: Thuggins
Post Number: 25
Registered: 12-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 24, 2008 - 10:12 pm: |
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I've really come to appreciate graphite for camera repair. It's especially good for sliding surfaces (like those aperture blades), and works great on shafts, too. It won't gum up, contaminate the optics, or attract dust. Just be sure to work the graphite into the surfaces, and blow away any excess. |
Jackowens
Tinkerer
Username: Jackowens
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2008 - 04:47 pm: |
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I'm supicious of using oil/grease because, over time, they can thicken and dry out.
How about graphite? Mixing it with lighter-fluid to apply it. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 732
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2008 - 08:20 pm: |
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I have used graphite on rare occasions, but it has mostly been as a last resort if for some reason I couldn't get a proper cleaning job done. If the grains of graphite are large enough to be visible (they are in most graphite powders) they are like little grains of sand in the works ... you want it to be ground VERY Fine. Even then, the dust will get on lens elements and float around all over the place inside the works. About the only way I will use graphite is by rubbing a soft pencil lead on the blades, and frankly I can't remember the last time I even did that. If it's really clean and dry, graphite should not be necessary. |
Scott
Tinkerer
Username: Scott
Post Number: 26
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 11:23 am: |
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Glad to see that you're getting so much good avdice here, Krafty.
I have fixed and use a couple of Tower 18B cameras, and they are pretty well-made, and have nice lenses. One glitch that both of them had (which happens on all makes of leaf shutter cameras) is that the shutters often stuck shut. When I pressed the shutter release, the leaves sort of twitch slightly, but that's all. Of course, the problem is that there's too much friction either on the blades themselves, or the actuating rings. Oil, or dirt, or both are the cause of the friction, so I swabbed the blades clean and it worked fine for a while, but then it went back to sticking again sometime later.
If the shutter leaves appear to be opening and closing crisply but the slower speeds (1/30 and slower) still sound too slow, then there's probably too much friction in the slow-speed escapement mechanism. With the cam-plate off of the shutter, you can easily see where it is. 3-4 drops of naptha (lighter fluid) in the right place will speed things up considerably.
The springs that operate the shutter and aperture blades are too weak to overcome any friction caused by even traces of oil. Go ahead and smear a bit of synthetic grease on advance linkages, spindles, gears, rangefinder mechanisms, etc., just keep the grease and oil away from the actual shutter and aperture leaves, gears, escapements, etc.
A bus mechanic, eh? My grandpa was a bus mechanic. He was in charge of school bus maintennance in Odessa, Texas from the late 50s to the late 60s. When I was a little kid, he would let me climb down into the pit and and he'd show me all the tools and such. To this day, the smell of a dirty, greasy garage with gasoline, gear oil and welding fumes is still a very familiar and comforting aroma  |
Mndean
Tinkerer
Username: Mndean
Post Number: 106
Registered: 08-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 03:41 pm: |
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I learned to use as little oil as possible in a leaf shutter, and never get grease anywhere near anything that wasn't a helical. It's worked pretty well so far.
It's funny how buses came up here. I had a neighbor who was a bus mechanic at the local transit company. He showed me around and taught me a lot of things about buses back in the '80s. As with trains, I was fascinated by the old GM Fishbowls and soaked up his knowledge on those and the other buses in the fleet. It became something of a hobby.
Years later, an acquaintance wanted to buy a bus since he toured a racing circuit and wanted to modify one to use for going from race to race. I had learned much more since the time in the '80s, and went with him to the bus lot. He showed me what he was looking at - a 35' Neoplan city bus and a Prevost Prestige. He really wanted the Neoplan and I told him no, the gearing was wrong for freeway driving and the miles between overhauls too long. I think he liked it because it was the newest bus they had. As if years had anything to do with it. The Prevost was a little better in the engine department, but it had sat for a loong time and was suspiciously inexpensive. I felt something had to be wrong with it - it drove okay but took forever to air up. They had a GM PD 4905, one of the last years built, and I knew the company that owned it. I asked when the last overhaul was - engine was less than 100K, tranny less than 60K, which was good. It was sort of ugly (dings in the aluminum and the interior was well worn), but it started and drove well and was only $5k more than the Neoplan he wanted. I told him to buy the 4905 if he was going to get one at all. If he had to spend the extra 5 grand he'd more than make up for it later. He said he'd think about it. Less than a week later he snuck back to the lot without me and got the Neoplan. It lasted four weeks before the engine let go. I think he didn't trust me because I hadn't been a professional in the field, just an enthusiast. |
Krafty5260
Tinkerer
Username: Krafty5260
Post Number: 38
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2008 - 01:57 pm: |
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Great Scott, I've been away from this forum since May, and I was quite shocked to see this thread ongoing, but pleased by the new information. Now, I have a pretty decent grasp on what lubricants to use and how much, but here's where I'm high centered.
I guess i'm such a total right brainer that I'm trying to get my tiny mind around the actual lubrication process. I did run across a comment here about removing the outer glass element for access to the shutter. Does that make sense? What about the innermost element? Or, does that vary with the camera?
Geez, I feel like a picture book learner with this stuff. I'm sorry about that. The one thing I can offer is, once I get it, I've got it.
The old Army manuals usually began, "Approach the vehicle from the driver's side . . ."
thanks always gang,
Michael |
Scott
Tinkerer
Username: Scott
Post Number: 27
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2008 - 06:59 pm: |
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Well, in those between-the-lens leaf shutters, the only way to get at the shutter and aperture leaves is to remove the lens glass. I usually take out all of the glass, from the front and the back of the shutter, in order to clean both sides. A proper (adjustable) lens spanner makes that much easier.
In extreme cases, you may have to dismantle the shutter completely and clean each blade and actuating ring seperately, but that is a tedious job. |
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