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Jerk151
Tinkerer
Username: Jerk151
Post Number: 8
Registered: 06-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - 04:39 am: | 
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I have found lots of stuff about removing shutters and the timing break down on general shutters, but nothing that quite matches what I am looking for. I have quite a few TLRs that I want to put back into service. I thought I would start with the least expensive on to get my feet wet. It's a Wagoflex w/ a copal shutter. Mostly this camera is in good condition, except for the aperture blades have oil on them and will not open and close correctly. I have broken the camera down and removed the shutter and the elements from the shutter. I hope was to clean the blades with Denatured alcohol and a Q-Tip, but it just doesn't seem to get it all. There is enough oil that every time the blades are opened fully and closed again, more oil appears. I would like to clean the blades individually, but can't seem to figure out how to remove the aperture assembly from the back. I have done quite a few CLA's on larger Prontor Press shutters that I purchased for my LF camera. On these, you remove 4 screws from the back and the whole aperture assembly comes off leaving the shutter blades exposed. Then you can break into the aperture assembly on it's own. I removed 3 screws from this Copal shutter that I was under the impression would have the same effect, yet, it does not come off. This being the case, I will not be able to get to the shutter blades either. It looks like the 3 screws I removed would allow you to then left the entire mechanical works out from the front. I have not tried this as it seems like it will be near impossible to get the shutter blades back in place correctly from this position. Anyone have a breakdown of this particular shutter? I did check Rick Olsen's page for a lot of info, but didn't really find the answer I was looking for, did I not look long enough?
Thank You
Jody |
Nickon51
Tinkerer
Username: Nickon51
Post Number: 23
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - 04:52 am: |
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Hi Jody,
Here's a link that might help you
http://pheugo.com/cameras/index.php?page=default&WEBMGR=770d1f0ecf88a934acb69d61 e51e6597
Most of the small shutters I've worked on require the mechanism to be removed right down to the aperture blades at the bottom.
I would suggest using Ronsol, Lighter fluid, Naptha, or whatever its called in your part of the world. Its much more effective in removing oil than alcohol.
Good luck
Greg |
Jerk151
Tinkerer
Username: Jerk151
Post Number: 9
Registered: 06-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - 07:43 am: |
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Thanks, Yeah I have that page bookmarked here at my work, but forgot about it. So it looks like I "Will" have to take the whole mechanical workings out. That should be fun.
I originally steered clear of Naphtha because it is petroleum based and slow drying. I was afraid the petroleum would eventually cause a similar problem with blades sticking together, being that petroleum will soak (a little)into the steel rather than evaporate. Of course, it may not soak in on steel that has been "Blued" I'm not sure.
So when I start this, are there any particular tension springs to be aware of that are prone to giving problems?
Thanks,
Jody |
Nickon51
Tinkerer
Username: Nickon51
Post Number: 24
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 02:35 am: |
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I haven't worked on that particular model of Copal, only the SVA style. Just take plenty of digital snaps as you take things apart.
Here in Oz "Shellite" is the brand of lighter fluid that we use. It dries quite quickly and doesn't penetrate at all. The oils and grease dissolve in it and are then carried away as you rinse the parts. It may be worth purchasing a bottle of lighter fluid and trying that.
Some repairers use a flush clean method where you use a syringe (less needle) to squirt the shellite into the shutter as the blades are worked back and forth. It would probably work ok with the shutter stripped down as far as you have, but may require several flush outs to clear all the dirt and old lubricant out.
You mention that you have dismantled shutters previously, so I don't think you'll have any problems.
Cheers |
Glenn
Tinkerer
Username: Glenn
Post Number: 422
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 07:46 pm: |
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Jody,
I do not know what 'cut' of solvent naphtha you have been using, but the petroleum spirits used in lighter fluids - Ronsonol, Shellite and the like will all evaporate very quickly, too quickly in some cases. I know that some Naphtha based solvents in the EU are blended from reclaimed stock, these are for use as industrial cleaning/paint solvents. As you are US based, I have no knowledge of what the specified 'cut'( temperature range) is for normal solvent naphtha.
Petroleum (naphtha) solvents will not 'soak' into polished or blued steels. Where you get problems with solvent washed iris blades re-sticking, you will always find that you did not flush all the oils/grease out of the mechanism. As the solvent evaporates, it leaves a nice oily film on the blades. |
August
Tinkerer
Username: August
Post Number: 25
Registered: 06-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 08:50 pm: |
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I have not done a Copal, but on all the Prontor/Compur sticky shutters that I have freed up, I was able to get them going again without disassembly simply by swabbing the oil off the blades, working the shutter, swabbing again, and so on and so on. Use a tiny amount of naphtha the first few times, then use nothing. It helps if you can stop the shutter part way open, which allows cleaning of areas of the blades that are inaccessible due to overlap when the shutter is closed. It also helps if the shutter has a cocking lever that allows you to coax it open and closed against resistance, because the shutter will get stickier before it frees up. Six hours or so of repeated dry-swabbing and working the shutter has generally done it for me. Quite boring, but in the end satisfying because the blades end up absolutely clean, no oily film that can become a problem later. |
Jerk151
Tinkerer
Username: Jerk151
Post Number: 10
Registered: 06-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 19, 2008 - 10:25 am: |
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Thanks for the help. I haven't gotten back to it this week as I wanted, but I will be on it tomorrow. |
Jerk151
Tinkerer
Username: Jerk151
Post Number: 11
Registered: 06-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2008 - 10:39 am: |
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I got back to it last night for a bit. I was still unable to get all the gunk out of the blades with Naptha. So, I took it apart and cleaned them individually. I found a fourth screw so everything came out at once.
Now the problem (you knew there was going to be one) I was unable to get a clear view of how the arrangement of the blades lie together. I now have 10 semicircle blades and don't know how to re-stack them. Anyone?
Thanks |
Nickon51
Tinkerer
Username: Nickon51
Post Number: 25
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 26, 2008 - 05:00 am: |
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I'm not really sure about your Copal, but these pictures might help. They are typical of a Wollensak.
If not a picture or two of yours might help.
  +++ jpeg +++ 13370 +++ Aperture
Blades 3 +++
The blades are first laid out in a circular pattern, then the brass ring is slipped in between the top and bottom layers.
Note that in the last picture the brass ring is upside down, I had to take it out and start again.
Cheers
Greg |
Nickon51
Tinkerer
Username: Nickon51
Post Number: 26
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 26, 2008 - 05:04 am: |
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Jerk151
Tinkerer
Username: Jerk151
Post Number: 12
Registered: 06-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 26, 2008 - 12:20 pm: |
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Thanks, I actually figured out a way to stack them correctly, but have yet been able to get everything put back together in the right position. It's quite a bit different than in your pictures. I took some shoots last night as I was going along. I haven't downloaded them yet because I am going to have to start all over, again! This seriously may be the most frustrating thing I have ever attempted to do. Strangely, I have not thrown anything across the room as I would while doing a woodworking project that just won't work right. My Scottish roots came with a vicious temper but this is teaching me patience. My wife will be so pleased she doesn't have to hear the screaming, beating, breaking and sobbing from the garage any longer. I will try again tonight or tomorrow and post some pictures if you guys think it would help.
Skol,
Jody |
Paul_ron
Tinkerer
Username: Paul_ron
Post Number: 123
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 08:38 am: |
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Instead of lighter fuel, use Coleman camping stove fuel, white gas. It evaporates fast n leaves no residue. |
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