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Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 52
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 11:41 am: | 
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Hi.
I have never had a CLA done before. The camera in question is a Canon FTb. Shutter works, seals have been replaced, meter works ... but meter and shutter need recalibration (meter is off by a bit and there is shutter capping occurring at higher speeds).
How should I proceed in this regards? I most probably have to mail out the camera to some repair service. What are the right questions I should ask in advance? How can I judge the place is reliable? Can somebody recommend a place in the US or in Canada, which is trustworthy and economical?
Just for reference, what does a thorough CLA include? Shutter dis-assembly for cleaning and lubrication? Shutter brake replacement? Curtain accelerations and timing adjustment? Meter adjustment? Thorough lubrication? Finally, what is the ballpark figure I should expect to pay for this?
Thanks. |
Tom_cheshire
Tinkerer
Username: Tom_cheshire
Post Number: 263
Registered: 04-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 01:32 pm: |
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You want SPTS (Strauss Photo Technical Services). They have a website.
They are the one who repair cameras for all the camera shops who send their repair work out. |
David_nebenzahl
Tinkerer
Username: David_nebenzahl
Post Number: 147
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 04:52 pm: |
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Here's the website for Strauss Photo-Technical Services. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 1054
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 13, 2010 - 09:11 am: |
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"They are the one who repair cameras for all the camera shops who send their repair work out."
ALL? that seems like kind of a strong word, I was sure there were other repair services. Here's a directory of a number of them in the US and Canada:
http://acecam.com/srindex.html |
David_nebenzahl
Tinkerer
Username: David_nebenzahl
Post Number: 149
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 13, 2010 - 11:30 am: |
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So Rick, how would you describe a CLA? What should one expect of such a procedure? I wouldn't think it would include much of a tear-down of the camera as the OP described. |
Mikel
Tinkerer
Username: Mikel
Post Number: 200
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 13, 2010 - 01:56 pm: |
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In the trade a CLA is sometimes jokingly referred to as a "dust and adjust"- an exterior cleaning, maybe a light seal replacement, and a check and adjustment of shutter and light meter, if necessary.
Your mileage may vary. You can always ask in advance what is included. Vague or hazy answers are a warning to be wary. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 1055
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 13, 2010 - 03:42 pm: |
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I expect it will vary... I expect the first thing will be to check out the camera and see how well it's working to begin with. I would expect it to be disassembled to the point of being able to clean and lubricate the escapement and, and of course anything like a fading shutter would be corrected. In an SLR I would expect the mirror mechanisms to be checked at least, and cleaned and lubricated if required.
When a camera is 40 years old, it's likely to need some cleaning and lubrication even if it is fully in spec. I would not, however, expect a CLA to involve total disassembly of the camera - certainly not if you don't want to pay far more than the value of a Canon FTb for it. And I'm not sure that having a camera periodically disassembled and reassembled as a matter of routine is necessarily good for it. I don't disassemble cameras for fun when they're working well, and when something is out of adjustment I generally go in to correct that issue as non-invasively as I can. A CLA may vary depending on what the camera needs, if it's me doing it. But that's just me, I don't do this stuff for a living. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 53
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 13, 2010 - 06:30 pm: |
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Since I am not familiar with intricacies of a CLA, I would like to pose a related question. How is shutter bounce and shutter capping problem dealt with during a CLA? Is this expected to be part of CLA?
As to a CLA sometimes meaning only external cleaning, seal/foam changing and perhaps mirror prism cleaning; I can do this myself. And I have only limited knowledge of camera repair to boot. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 1058
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 13, 2010 - 07:05 pm: |
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That's easier to answer.
When a camera comes back from a CLA, the shutter should be within factory specs at all speeds - typically, this means within about 1/3 stop at most speeds, with the fastest one or two speeds allowed a wider tolerance of more like 1/2 stop. There should be no fading or capping of the shutter at any speed, and the meter should be accurate (again, typically within a tolerance of 1/3 stop or so).
Shutter fade/capping is usually caused by dirt, either in the spindle bearings or in the gear trains coupled to the curtain spindles. Hesitant slow shutter speeds are also caused by dirt, in the timing escapement. In some cameras (typically Nikons), jumpy meter needles are caused by dirt on a variable resistor that tracks the position of the aperture ring; and sticking lens aperture blades are also caused by dirt (oil, actually, where it doesn't belong). So as you can see, cleaning is a big part of camera repair, and a proper CLA can cure a multitude of ills.
If something is actually broken or worn out, of course, a CLA won't fix that, and the camera will become either more expensive or impossible to repair. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 54
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 13, 2010 - 08:11 pm: |
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Thanks, Rick, for the lucid comments.
I might as well specify clearly what I am looking for. I have more less done most of the easier cleaning for my FTb. The prism, focusing screen, variable resistors, some mechanical problems due to lack of lubrication, lose frame counter window, etc. have all been fixed. Meter calibration is also not that big a problem. Took me a bit to get to know the internals of the FTb, but it was not difficult.
Now, what is left is the problem of shutter bounce (the left sides of photos are brighter) and shutter capping at higher speeds (dark bands in the middle, demonstrating the second curtain meeting up with the first one within a frame).
I do not have a repair manual for an FTb (or less I might given it a shot) and all I am looking for is to fix these specific problems. If this requires sending it off for a CLA, well, then so be it. But if I somehow find out the mechanics to do this myself (clean shutter bearings, lubricate them, and then adjust tensions if required), I can give it a shot. You see, the kick I get out of this is to have experience in these sort of things. I am an engineer, and wanting to fix stuff myself comes sort of naturally to me  |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 1059
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 13, 2010 - 08:31 pm: |
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I have some notes on the FTb and related models, but they do not touch on the problems that you have still to deal with. However, there are some inexpensive repair manuals here that you might be interested in (looks like $6 each):
http://www.lensinc.net/canonrepair.html |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 55
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 13, 2010 - 08:48 pm: |
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Wonderful link. I will take a look. BTW, I already have a service manual for FTb which shows the parts list and their exploded views, but it does not have elaborate procedure listed to do specific tasks. It's been of tremendous help, nonetheless.
BTW, I already have found out how to take out the frame advance unit and the shutter speed unit. These should reveal the gears and curtain shafts. I more or less already know where the shafts are at the bottom of the camera.
It's been a few weeks since I touched the camera. Last time I opened it up, I tried to solve the problem of mirror lock up. Sometimes the mirror would not retract by itself and would come down only when I advanced the frame.
Well, after cleaning a bunch of gears and links and touching them with lubricants at some strategic places seems to have solved that problem.
I had already realized that I needed access to the curtain shafts from the top. And for that I needed to remove the frame counter unit and the shutter speed unit (the latter just needs to be bent out of place without disconnecting the wires that link to the meter and the shutter speed indicator dial). I think I can do both of these now.
Basically, the questions I have been unable to answer myself are the following.
1. After having access to the curtain shafts from the top and bottom, do I need to disassemble the camera further to take out the shaft to clean and lubricate them? Or, in other words, what does cleaning and lubricating curtain shaft really mean? Take them out and clean them in naphtha? Or just get access to them and touch them with suitable lubricants?
2. Do I need to clean/lube the shafts on the other side as well (meter side)?
3. How do I know the curtain breaks do not need replacement? Is it them causing the shutter bounce? |
Gez
Tinkerer
Username: Gez
Post Number: 175
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 04:41 am: |
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Unless you are prepared to pay $$$ don't expect much from a 'professional' CLA. I can't speak for the big repair outfits in the States, but from experience small repair firms in England are next to useless, the only thing they are good at is leaving tooling marks on otherwise pristine cameras.
So approach your repair work as a hobby, if it takes 2 or 3 months to repair your FTb, so what, you are supposed to having FUN!
National Camera, Larry Lyell's old outfit, still has copies of their instructional work book for the FTb; lots of detailed photos but little in the way of text, mainly captions pointing to key parts. Gives a full strip-down to the bare chassis, more than most of us need. Though it is not cheap at over $25.
PS at what speeds is the mirror not returning? my guess, 1/8 and 1 sec?? |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 56
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 08:51 am: |
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Gez, I share your sentiments regarding having fun with the camera repair!
As I mentioned here earlier, I also have a PDF file that shows exploded diagrams of the camera.
So far, it has been a really nice experience. Have had success more or less so far.
The mirror lock up problem was not at any special speeds, it seemed to happen at higher ones as well. But it appears to be fixed now. After posting my last post here last night, I again took the camera out and release the shutter several times at various speeds. No mirror lock up
The only main problem I now have left to fix is the shutter capping. I know from the excellent discussion here that the shutter spindles need to be cleaned and lubricated. But I have no idea what this really means, as I expressed with some questions in my last post here. |
Mikel
Tinkerer
Username: Mikel
Post Number: 201
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 02:33 pm: |
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I think that you have done well so far. Why not finish the job yourself? I know you can do it. You need to clean/oil shafts in six bushings, five of which you can probably already see. They are the curtain rollers and the master shaft, which runs from the top to the bottom of the camera.
I'd recommend cleaning the bushings with ronsonol (naptha) but don't flood the area, just use a couple of drops and blow it out. If you soak the curtains, you may cause the glue to fail- not a happy result.
Let the camera sit overnight and then lube the bushings with a drop of Nyoil or something similar. Work the shutter several dozen times, let it sit another night, work the shutter several dozen more times, and check the shutter speeds. The adjustment cogs are down at the bottom. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 57
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 03:07 pm: |
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Mikel, thanks for the encouragement.
I was looking for a CLA, reluctantly though (it was akin to admitting defeat, if you know what I mean), only because I was afraid cleaning and lubing the shutter shafts might involve disassembling the mirror box and then the shutter assembly -- going to the core of the camera.
From your reply, however, it appears no such dis-assembly is required. Am I correct?
Here is a labeled picture of the bottom of the camera.
If I understand this properly, the curtain shafts are pointed to by the magenta arrows (the circled one is below the plastic white gear). Is the cyan arrow pointing to the master shaft?
Could you also point to me the shutter speed adjustment cogs?
Is it enough for me to take out the frame counter assembly from the top and bend away the shutter speed assembly to clean and lube the shutter shafts ends on the top of the camera?
Should I be lubing the shutter shafts ends on the rewind side on the top of the camera?
Finally, do I understand it right that I can use naphtha on the shafts without dis-assembling them at all? In other words, if I just drop a few drops of naphtha on the shaft end bushing, that should be enought? If so, where does the dirt and grime supposed to go which naphtha is expected to clean?
(sorry for all the questions, but to me this is very exciting!)
Also, am I right in understanding that the shutter shafts are supported only at their two ends with the brass bushings and nowhere else along their lengths?
Much thanks! |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 1060
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 03:10 pm: |
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I agree - clean the bushings by flowing a few drops of Ronsonol through them, and lubricate (after fully dry) with a drop or two of thin oil. Once you know they are clean and running well, then you can adjust out capping if it's still there. |
Mikel
Tinkerer
Username: Mikel
Post Number: 202
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 06:43 pm: |
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"From your reply, however, it appears no such dis-assembly is required. Am I correct?"
That is correct. Further disassembly would be a waste of time.
"Is it enough for me to take out the frame counter assembly from the top and bend away the shutter speed assembly to clean and lube the shutter shafts ends on the top of the camera?"
"Should I be lubing the shutter shafts ends on the rewind side on the top of the camera?"
Yes to all of the above.
"If so, where does the dirt and grime supposed to go which naphtha is expected to clean?"
It goes to never never land. Don't worry about it. It probably wouldn't show up on your handkerchief.
"Also, am I right in understanding that the shutter shafts are supported only at their two ends with the brass bushings and nowhere else along their lengths?"
Yes, that is how things work.
As you have the exploded diagrams of the camera, you are ready to proceed with the patience and fortitude you have displayed so far.
As Rick says, you can adjust out the capping if it is still there. I wouldn't be surprised if the shutter is working VERY well at that point.
It's a great camera. I bought a new one in black in 1974 and enjoyed using it. Well, at the same time I bought a Canon EF (I was flush with cash at the time) so the FTb went away a few years later. I still have the EF. Maybe Rick can relate. Unlike Rick I have never been so diligent with keeping sketches so now have to rely on memory. Not good.
Final business note: the bottom of the master shaft is hidden under something (maybe the pinion gear?) so you need to get at it with a syringe needle. Your assembly diagram should help. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 58
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 06:50 pm: |
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Mikel, thanks a ton for the specific point by point answers.
Regarding the shafts' spindles on the rewind side (left side of the camera as seen from behind the viewfinder), I suppose they are under the light meter assembly. The meter needs to come off then or is there some lazy way to reach the shaft bushings? |
Mikel
Tinkerer
Username: Mikel
Post Number: 204
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 08:24 pm: |
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As I recall, the meter is modular and can be moved aside. Be careful with the meter and needle.
Consult your diagram. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 59
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 08:32 pm: |
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Well, I have most of it done.
Now, the problem. I had the shutter speed dial unscrewed and moved aside. The gears on the camera body below the dial assembly are shown below.
Now, for putting back the shutter speed dial assembly, I only need to put the spindles labeled with green circles in to their holes on the assembly base plate, correct?
Next, on the underside of the shutter assembly, there is a nut which has three disks with irregular radii. I assume the three arms labeled with magenta number engage each of the three disks. Am I correct in this?
And then I just screw in the four screws in to the base of the shutter speed assembly and secure it to the chassis.
Basically, I am now at a position of re-seating the shutter speed dial assembly. For obvious reasons, I do have have photos of the gears under the assembly before I took it off. I need some detailed instructions here so as not to make a mistake.
Very critical step, guys! |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 60
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 11:10 pm: |
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Well, I have managed to reseat the shutter speed dial assembly. However (a bit however), the speeds are all messed up.
In the photo I showed in my previous message, it appears that the arm labeled "1" is not meeting up with the uppermost disk in the shutter speed cam.
So I figure that the three arms' position is encoded as shutter speed.
Looks like I missed some position when I re-seated the shutter speed assembly. What I did was to seat it such that the two arms spindles went into their respective slots in the shutter speed assembly's plate, arm "1" was supposed to touch the higher most cam, arm "2" the middle cam and arm "3" the lower most cam. What did I miss?
The main problem I see is that arm "1" is not being moved by the cam; it is not meeting the cam firmly. Is there a trick to this arm or something?
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Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 61
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 10:02 am: |
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Okay, never mind about the arm "1".
The trick was to seat the spindle of that arm properly. The spindle presumably engages a spring at the other end. The spindle should be set such that when it rotates clockwise (looking from the top), the arm feels a spring tension. In other words, by holding the spindle (with closed forceps e.g.) if arm "1" is rotated clockwise, is should unwind back when released. Then the arm engages properly with the cam underneath the shutter speed axle or nut. However, in this right position of arms "1" and "2", they are 'closed' towards the cam of the shutter speed dial. So when seating the shutter speed assembly, these arms needs to wound out, the assembly seated and then the arms can be released so that they engage with their respective cams. I used a screw driver to wind arm "1" away from the cam, let the cam down and let the arm go. Similarly, I wound out arm "2" using a pair long nose pliers. Tricky, but can be done once the basics are clear. The speeds appear to be okay now, but I will test them later with my home brewed shutter speed tester.
Results: the 1/500 and 1/1000 are much much better!
Now, by pointing the camera to the sky with the lens removed and the back open, I do not see the problem of shutter capping (and perhaps not even shutter bound) to the extent that it was occurring before. But I am not sure if I can make out if it is 100% fixed.
The only thing I have left out, or not done yet, is to deal with the shutter spindles on the film cartridge side (rewind knob side). Main reason being I am not clear how to go about that. Pointers please?
But credit where it is due: Mikel, Rick and Gez, many many thanks for your tremendous continuing help! You guys rock! |
David_nebenzahl
Tinkerer
Username: David_nebenzahl
Post Number: 157
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 12:02 pm: |
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So you have a homemade shutter speed tester too. I'm curious about that, having built one myself (one that turned out to be very accurate). If you like, we could discuss that, perhaps in a new thread here. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 62
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 03:08 pm: |
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Sure, David. I will make a new post later tonight regarding the home made shutter speed tester. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 66
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 12:09 pm: |
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The verdict is in: shutter capping and bounce all cured for speeds from 1/60 and above (used these on the test roll of film)!
The resulting test shots are shown below. From top left, the exposures are with a 50mm lens at:
1. 1/1000 with f/5.6
2. 1/500 with f/8
3. 1/250 with f/16
Before the cleaning and lubricating of the shutter spindles, I was getting tremendous amount of capping (shown by left half of the frame being unexposed at speeds of 1/500 and 1/1000) and bounce, shown by the a bright vertical band on the left mos side side of the exposed area in various speeds.
Comments are welcome.
Thank you all for such wonderful help in gaining such an interesting experience.
I just thought I would post this to close the thread.
Also, the only thing to be answered is how to reach the shutter curtain spindles on the rewind knob side (if necessary). Also, I am not sure if I need to disassemble the meter for this. |
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