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Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 120
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2010 - 12:41 pm: | 
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Well, I finally got the film cradles out and disassembled the Weltur as far as it will go. Think is, the front frame half is not designed so it can be removed intact. It fits into slots and will have to be bent to be removed. My plan is to remove it anyway and just glue the bellows to the front of the rear frame. I need an OPAQUE epoxy to do this. Contact cement is not an option for securing the rear of the bellows because I would be concerned that it would pull loose. My question is: will J B Weld stick to fabric and vinyl or do I need to mix lamp black with regular epoxy to do this? Is there a better way I have not considered? |
Scott
Tinkerer
Username: Scott
Post Number: 100
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2010 - 02:42 pm: |
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I've never tried anything like the repair you are describing, so I can't speak from experience. But what I was thinking is that I might try to choose a type of glue that could be removed later, if it became necessary later.
JB Weld would be awfully hard to scrape off, wouldn't it?
Making glue or epoxy opaque would be good, but another approach would be to use normal glue, and then just coat the seam later with something to make it light tight.
Have you considered making a square frame (out of sheet metal or plastic?) to fit inside the last fold of the bellows, and then using sheet metal screws (or rivets) to attach it to the camera body? |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 121
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 03, 2010 - 11:58 am: |
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Well, I've done a number of pre-war Bessa RF cameras that needed new bellows, and those came from the factory with the bellows glued in from the front. Whatever they used -- if it wasn't epoxy, it was just as hard. I know, because I had to scrape it out, and it was really tough. Having done this a few times before, though, I can do it again if it is needed.
Attaching it with sheet metal screws is not really an option. There is no extra space there. The sheet metal screws would have to go through the film rails and would scratch up the negatives. |
Francis_otto
Tinkerer
Username: Francis_otto
Post Number: 36
Registered: 12-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2010 - 02:47 pm: |
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Would shellac work? That's what, I understand was used extensively for camera coverings (and also for fixing ink-sacs in fountain-pens): it's a natural substance and while the spirit is evaporating, there is time to make small adjustments; it's also unlikely to harm any of the materials it comes into contact with. |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 122
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2010 - 06:11 pm: |
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Francis,
That might be an option, but I need a really strong adhesive. Camera coverings are not under any stress, but this thing is going to be pulled on every time the camera is opened. That's why my first instinct was to go with epoxy. It's the strongest adhesive I know of.
Are you sure that shellac was used to repair the rubber reservoirs on fountain pens? It's water soluable to an extent, you know (turns white and crumbles like hard cheese if it stays wet for a while). Seems to me that, of the things they had to work with back then, something like rubber cement would have been the thing to use. |
Denny
Tinkerer
Username: Denny
Post Number: 29
Registered: 08-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2010 - 07:09 pm: |
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You might consider a trip to your friendly auto parts store and pick their brains. 3M made/makes a "Emblem and Molding" adhesive that is black as tar, and has about the same consistency when it comes out of the tube. My experience with it in the past is that it will stick to anything, as many mouldings are vinyls, plastics and have to stick to the painted car.
I have used black RTV as sealants, but never tested their adhesive ability. I know some "caulks" are also listed as an adhesive (some are not) and will stick to almost anything. Black RTV may be an option and a good parts counter man could probably help, and may have an open tube to experiment with.
Good luck and let us know if you find the magic bullet. |
Scott
Tinkerer
Username: Scott
Post Number: 102
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2010 - 08:53 pm: |
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Denny, checking at the auto parts store is a great idea. I hadn't thought of that.
But it made me recall back when I was a teenager. Me and my pals spent a lot of time helping each other overhaul the engines in our old hotrods. We used various kinds of gasket sealer we bought in small tubes at the parts store for sealing oil pan gaskets, etc, and it was usually black, and quite opaque.
Parts store generally have a wide variety of gasket sealer and it is basically a kind of glue, only made to withstand heat, of course. Some of it dries hard, and some less hard.
Might be the perfect adhesive for glueing a bellows to the camera body. It would definitely be worth buying a tube or two, and testing it on a similar surface to see how it would work. |
Denny
Tinkerer
Username: Denny
Post Number: 31
Registered: 08-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2010 - 09:04 pm: |
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I loved the smell of Indian Head Gasket Shellac (maybe a wee bit of sarcasm). I think there are various types of Permatex with differing hardness. Some stays more pliable and I think the Permatex was more opaque. There are a lot of sealers, glues and adhesives available. That emblem and trim stuff was really sticky and black. |
Ron_g
Tinkerer
Username: Ron_g
Post Number: 20
Registered: 07-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2010 - 03:33 am: |
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The Permatex products generally are marketed in different colors depending on their characteristics as to hardening permanently or whatever,I think red was the permanant product,blue was semihard curing,etc.
An interesting tidbit,when installing water mains it is common practice to put chlorine tablets in the pipe as you put it in the ground and the proper way to do that is use an adhesive to stick them to the top of the pipe as you go.
The only adhesive approved for use by the water departments is Permatex.Ron G |
Waynemel
Tinkerer
Username: Waynemel
Post Number: 83
Registered: 08-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2010 - 05:42 am: |
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I know there is a black epoxy available for repairing plastic car bumpers. It cures to a semi-flexible state and is sandable. This may work. |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 123
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2010 - 11:34 am: |
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Well, the emblem and molding adhesive sounds like a good idea as well as the black epoxy. I think those are the ones I will check out. I'll try them on something else first, of course, and see how well they stick when tugged upon (after curing). |
Ir8d8r
Tinkerer
Username: Ir8d8r
Post Number: 3
Registered: 05-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2010 - 12:41 pm: |
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Used 3M "Weatherstrip Adhesive" on convertible tops for Alfa-romeo's, Jags, Fiat etc. (not to mention weatherstrip...)It is kind of a thicker version of contact cement in a tube and it's black and dried flexible but tough. Assembled after letting it get tacky enough to hold together but not dry completely like contact cement Cloth to metal and sometimes cloth to plastic bonded easy and stayed put. You could clean up with solvent. Problem with epoxy is getting it out of places it finds its way into without an air chisel and JB weld is kind of runny... Also too much club for attaching a camera bellows IMO. |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 141
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 03:38 pm: |
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Well, I tried the "3M Weatherstrip Adhesive." My advice: DON'T TRY IT! The stuff sticks to everything, is too soft and won't set up hard enough to hold the bellows in place, and was just an all-around bad idea. I'm just hoping I can find a solvent for it that will scrub it off of the new bellows so they're not ruined. I'm going back to the epoxy idea. At least I know that works. |
Denny
Tinkerer
Username: Denny
Post Number: 45
Registered: 08-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 10:12 pm: |
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Sorry to hear that. If you know anyone in the aircraft repair business, they may let you try a LITTLE bit of mek. But see if they know how it will react to the bellows material. We have found that it will remove almost any adhesive used on aircraft.
Thanks for sharing the experience. I am sure it will save others some grief down the road. |
Pcrov
Tinkerer
Username: Pcrov
Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 10:59 pm: |
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I used plenty (too much, really) MEK as a painter. Nasty stuff, but should be available in any paint supply shop or paint department of your local hardware store.
The data sheet from 3m on that adhesive lists Petroleum Distillate, Toluene, and Ethyl Alcohol as solvents. |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 142
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2010 - 05:02 pm: |
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Pcrov: Thanks for that. I'll try naphtha first, and if that doesn't work, then alcohol. |
