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Denverdad
Tinkerer
Username: Denverdad
Post Number: 1
Registered: 05-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 30, 2011 - 10:55 pm: | 
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When disassembling an old camera (for repair, restoration, re-finishing, modification, or whatever), have any of you had to deal with removing rivets and then re-riveting the parts back together afterwards? If so, I would be interested in any advice you might have as to how you deal with rivets in general, and in particular any suggestions for where to find suitably sized (i.e., small!) rivets, and possibly hand tools for installing them.
The question probably deserves some explanation, so here goes: In the last year or so I have developed a penchant for what you might call "consumer grade" MF cameras from the 1940's and 50's. In addition to taking them apart to figure them out and get them functioning again, I have enjoyed repairing or refinishing parts, modifying things such as apertures and shutter mechanisms, and just plain messing with them to see what can be done to make them the best they can be. In all of this I have been pleased at just how far a DIY'er like me can go towards resolving almost any problem that is encountered, using just a little bit of determination and creativity (not to mention a whole lot of obsessiveness!). But then I come up against those blasted rivets! Not surprisingly these more cheaply constructed cameras tend to have more than their fair share of them too.
In cases where rivets don't show externally and are merely holding two pieces of sheetmetal together, I have been happy to drill them out and replace them with small screws. But in other cases - such as where a rivet forms a pivot, or exists in an area where a replacement screw would either not provide sufficient clearance or else is just cosmetically unacceptable - it seems that re-riveting might be the only solution. Hence, it occurred to me that if I could just find a source for the small sized rivets required, and then make or buy whatever hand tools might be required to install them, I could soon be moving to the "next level" in my repertoire of capabilities with these old cameras.
So, any thoughts? I should mention that this is my first post here so I hope this question isn't too far "off-the-wall". But I haven't seen it discussed anywhere before. Granted, that is probably because hardly anyone would put as much effort into working on cheap old cameras as I do! But that's beside the point. ;)
Thanks,
Jeff |
Old_school
Tinkerer
Username: Old_school
Post Number: 55
Registered: 04-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2011 - 09:13 pm: |
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Jeff:
Not sure what size rivets you are inquiring about.
Give your local hobby store a try, or give http://julesborel.com/
a call first & give them the dimensions you are seeking. This is a very long shot as the old stretch bands had rivets & maybe they can meet you needs. They also may have the staking tools you could use, conical, concave, flat, & maybe an anvil for the bench vise. NAWCC usually has a denver show by the airport in the summer, you can get lost there & find all kinds of wonderful toys. The other alternative is to make them on a little lathe.
Hope this helps, The Best, Mike... |
Denverdad
Tinkerer
Username: Denverdad
Post Number: 2
Registered: 05-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 06:48 pm: |
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They vary in size of course, but typically something like a 1mm shank diameter. I'm only guessing (its kind of hard to measure them when they're installed!), but most are definitely smaller than the smallest I have seen available online, which is 1/16". I am also assuming that the semi-tubular type would be the most appropriate in terms of ease of installation.
The little lathe is an interesting idea. I can think of a lot of uses for that.  |
Old_school
Tinkerer
Username: Old_school
Post Number: 59
Registered: 04-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 09:05 pm: |
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Check out Sherline Lathes:
http://www.sherlinedirect.com/
The founder brought the prototype into the class room back in 1974 abouts. Boy have they gotten a good line up. The computer controlled devices, I have been told are very amazing for the price & size.
The Best Mike.... |
Hanskerensky
Tinkerer
Username: Hanskerensky
Post Number: 98
Registered: 05-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2011 - 12:14 pm: |
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One good source for rivets are places were they sell the ones used by scale model builders.
Just google "scale model rivets" and you probably find a place in your part of the world.
I also know that some clock builders make their own rivets out of a piece of small diameter brass rod. |
Denverdad
Tinkerer
Username: Denverdad
Post Number: 4
Registered: 05-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2011 - 03:37 pm: |
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Hanskerensky, now we're talking! A search for "scale model rivets" and then "miniature rivets" turned up several possibilites. It looks like small rivets can be purchased in packs (quantities of 100, for example), and are available down to sizes even smaller than I am likely to ever need (like 0.4mm dia. for example). So I have some hope now of finding what I need. It would be ideal if I could purchase an assortment and not have to buy packs of many different sizes and types. But even that isn't too bad as the prices are reasonable.
Old_school, thanks for the links. As much as I would like to have a small lathe (and a mill too of course!) the possibility of purchasing suitable rivets directly means I will likely hold off on that prospect for a while. |
Glenn
Tinkerer
Username: Glenn
Post Number: 931
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2011 - 07:25 am: |
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Finding suitable rivets is the easy part of the operation - you may find that approaching the supplier/manufacturer directly and offering to pay for a small sample of a selected size range, will get you enough to last a lifetime of camera repairs. This approach has always worked for me when trying to obtain very small quantities of suitable fasteners. Preparing the rivets properly is the time consuming part, the end of the shank must be cut square and be of correct length to form a proper head. The best way to size the shanks to length is to make a simple jig out of a piece of steel bar, which is the thickness of the required shank length - just file down a piece of flat bar to the required dimension - drill a line of holes the same diameter as the rivets and insert required number of same, place jig on bench top and carefully file protruding shanks off. Ideally if one is producing a lot of sized rivets, the jig wants to be made from hardened steel - an old engineer's square will provide ample steel to make the required jig. Draw the temper by leaving the square in a bonfire overnight, saw and file the foot of the square to the required dimension, drill the holes and then heat the jig to red heat and quench in a bucket of cold water. This will produce a glass hard jig that will not be damaged by any over enthusiastic filing.
One of the simplest ways of making small diameter rivets for repairs, is to make tubular steel rivets from hypodermic needles - these come in all manner of diameters and a chat with your friendly large animal vet can supply plenty of material! Small diameter brass tube can also be used in this method, but the diameters available are limited. One needs two jigs of the type described above - one to thickness of finished shank length and one that is equal to shank length plus length of steel tube needed to produce the two formed heads. Rivet production is simple, - anneal the needles at red heat and allow to cool slowly, place needles in thicker jig and square off points, using triangular file cut off excess from other side of jig and remove lengths of tube. Repeat process with the cut off excess until sufficient sized tubes are produced. Place tubes in thinner jig and place jig on a thick steel plate or back of vice, using a 'V' pointed marking punch open out the end of the protruding tube and then complete the head with a round or conical rivet set of suitable diameter. One can easily make conical sets - just start to drill a hole, the diameter of the finished head, into the end of a piece of silver steel bar of suitable diameter. The same punch and set are used to form the other head when completing the riveting up of the components. Tubular rivets of this type may not be prototypical, but they are easy to produce and make a lasting repair when small diameter rivets are involved.
When riveting using commercial rivets always anneal them before use. Can save a lot of agro when trying to repair delicate parts.
Always place a cartridge paper spacer, of suitable thickness, between the parts that have to move freely after riveting. Pulling the spacer out will guarantee enough free movement.
One should also be aware that drilling out components, to accept commonly available larger diameter rivets, may prove the simpler option. |
Old_school
Tinkerer
Username: Old_school
Post Number: 64
Registered: 04-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2011 - 09:35 am: |
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G:
A lot of good information. An older gentleman told me of seeing a company producing the staking tools for watchmakers. The process he learned from them in hardening the disc anvil on them was very similar to what you said above, but instead of just water it was a brine mixture. The color of the steel indicates the temperature, you mentioned red above, cherry or deep red I am sure, but just for the information as if it gets to a glowing orangish red & too hot it will destroy the steel.
I like the information on the hypo needles. Have heard of using them to make the tube portin on watch second hands etc., but never tried it. The part of annealing it makes sense as it would split when trying to flare the end.
The watchmaking books describe the temperature & color, from straw, blue, purple, into red, cherry red, & almost molten.
Along this note, Topcon camera company made, maybe still makes the pyrometers used in the foundry mills. Neet toys!
The Best Mike... |
Denverdad
Tinkerer
Username: Denverdad
Post Number: 5
Registered: 05-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2011 - 02:39 pm: |
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Wow, lots of great information. Thanks! |
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