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Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 181
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2011 - 10:11 pm: | 
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Or at least that's what Rick Oleson calls it. I bought this camera from an online auction and it arrived today. It has probably spent its entire existence inside its "neveready" case, and as a result, the camera is in virtually mint condition. I was (and still am) amazed at just how pristine it is.
But -- the focusing helical is frozen at infinity and the rangefinder wheel does not turn at all. Fortunately, the aperture dial turns easily and all shutter speeds operate, although the slow ones are about a stop slow (ie, 1 sec is 2 seconds, 1/2 sec is 1 second, etc.). And the bellows have no light leaks. So this camera will be an excellent shooter once I've adjusted the speeds and been able to correct the "green goo" problem.
So I've been looking around for a repair manual for it, but so far have had no luck. I've just finished reading through the current thread on the Solinette, whose owner has a similar problem, but I don't know if the advice he is receiving can be applied to my camera. What's more, I really don't know where to begin.
I'm guessing I should start with the lens by using a spanner to remove the retaining ring at the back of the lens, which should allow the lens/shutter assembly to come free, it appears.
But then what? Do I dunk the entire assembly in xylene (the chemical that Rick recommended for dissolving the coagulated lube) or perhaps play it a bit safer and try naphtha first? I have a can of naphtha, but no xylene, so I'm tempted to try it first. Or should I dismantle the assembly before dunking?
I could also use some advice on how best to remove the top cover. Facing the camera, there is only one visible screw, on the far left side of the cover. There is a large, flat, slot-head screw that appears to be holding the film spool dial in place, but the take up dial has nothing like this, and appears to be a bit more complex. I'm assuming it must be removed as well.
Any advice as to how I should proceed to clean and relube the rangefinder wheel's mechanism once the top cover has been removed would also be appreciated. |
Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 182
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2011 - 10:34 pm: |
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Well, dang it. Looks like I should have done a search here first. I'm already finding out some useful info. It appears that applying heat to the lens's helical may be a way to free it up -- like a hair dryer. And that xylene and perhaps a strong alcohol may also work. And then I found a link to this nice how-to over at Flickr for an Agfa Record:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29504544@N08/3650594497/in/set-72157620236720442
And then this one for an Isolette III:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29504544@N08/sets/72157607267588065/with/2870175893/
Okay, I'm off to try what I've learned. I'll report back. |
Scott
Tinkerer
Username: Scott
Post Number: 174
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 12:10 am: |
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If yours has the Apotar, then the repair will be much simpler than if it has a unit-focused lens.
Heat and strong alcohol can help, but don't soak the WHOLE shutter. Only the affected parts. I use the toaster-oven.
Naptha is the only chemical you want touching the shutter parts, because it evaporate almost completely. And never soak or flush a whole shutter unit. A few drops of naptha here and there is plenty.
Alcohol (unless it is 100% pure) contains some water, which will cause problems inside the shutter. |
Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 183
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 30, 2011 - 12:12 am: |
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Thanks for the feedback, Scott. Actually, mine has the 75mm f/3.5 Solinar, which I believe all Isolette III's came with? I have yet to remove the lens/shutter assy, so I don't know what's involved yet in separating the one from the other. Hopefully it will be pretty simple.
How about denatured alcohol? I've got a quart can of it in the shop. My understanding is, it's 100% alchohol -- over 90% ethanol that's been "denatured" (to render it undrinkable) by the inclusion of methanol for the remaining percentage.
I have some 91% Isopropyl sitting right next to me here at my desk, and I know from experience that that other 9% is water. Which I guess ain't too bad. I'll use it for cleaning lenses, but not for parts unless I can flush them with naphtha immediately afterward. |
Hanskerensky
Tinkerer
Username: Hanskerensky
Post Number: 149
Registered: 05-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 30, 2011 - 02:31 am: |
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I stopped using alcohol for anything inside the cameras mechanisms. Naphta is my favorite for that.
btw The fact that your Isolette III has a 75mm Solinar proofs that it is a later model. Older ones had a 85mm Solinar. |
Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 186
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 30, 2011 - 01:54 pm: |
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Hey Hans, Yeah I'm aware of its "lateness." I did some internet searching on it while waiting for the auction to close, and found out quite a bit about it. This camera likely dates to 1958 or so. |
Scott
Tinkerer
Username: Scott
Post Number: 175
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2011 - 10:03 am: |
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Oh, right-- it's unit-focused. Yep, I think the Isolette III was top-of-the-line for Agfa 6x6 folders.
My Agfa Ventura 66 has a Solinar, but is is front-cell-focused.
If your focus action is stuck or takes too much muscle to move, then you need to overhaul the helical mechanism. First step is to remove the whole shutter (as a unit). I'd start by removing the retaining ring nut that holds the shutter on the lens standard, and the shutter should drop right off.
Denatured alcohol or heat might help separate the parts, but don't try that until you've gotten the shutter off.
Then the helical mech. needs to be completely dismantled and cleaned of any grease or gunk. I've done that on TLRs and folders like the Karat. Make sketches and notes. Take special note of the exact position of the inner section as it comes out of the outer collar, because you need to get the right thread entrance on re-assembly. I scratch marks into the metal. I use clear synthetic grease for focus threads.
I'd say keep any alcohol out of the shutter. You don't want ANY water casuing rust in there-- even if it is just 8%.
If speeds down to 1/15th sound good, then I don't usually do a repair. But it sounds like your slow-speed mech. needs a few drops of naptha. I'd put 2-3 drops on the escapement, and immediately run the shutter 5-6 times on 1 second.
If the blades themselves are not sticking, then don't drip anything on them. |
Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 187
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2011 - 07:09 pm: |
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Thanks for the feedback, Scott.
It's my understanding that denatured alcohol is 100% alcohol -- 90-something percent ethanol with the balance being methanol, yes? No? But I'll go ahead and do as you recommend and restrict the shutter's exposure to naphtha. I'm guessing at this point there will be a way to dismount the lens assy from the shutter? I have yet to tear into it.
I reckon I'll have a clearer understanding of the order of things once I start dismantling things. And yes, I plan to take pics as I go.
Any particular favorite area where you scratch your marks? |
Scott
Tinkerer
Username: Scott
Post Number: 176
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2011 - 10:11 pm: |
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I do not have that model, but having repaired many similar German folding cameras of the mid 1950s, I expect the only thing holding the shutter on the lens is the ring nut which normally has 2 or 4 notches. A lens spanner is the appropriate tool. Sometimes does take some muscle to get it loose.
I scratch marks as reference points to remember positions BEFORE the inner and outer sections are separated. Like the position at which the inner section is flush with the outer section, and the relative positions at the thread entrance. That way, it will be obvious if I've got the right entrance or not. Go real slow as you remove the inner section, so you can note exactly where the two pieces come apart, and then make a scratch mark straight across both pieces at that position. That's the entrance. Or use a ink marker.
I'd note at which distance setting it is stuck, and then immediately when the shutter comes off, I'd take a caliper and note how many mm higher the inner section is from the outer section. Just as a reference on re-assembly.
Re. methanol, I have used it a few times when I soaked a section of a lens to get two lens groups apart. But I have never and would never actually submerge a whole shutter in anything. I think it would cause more problems that it would solve. |
Hanskerensky
Tinkerer
Username: Hanskerensky
Post Number: 150
Registered: 05-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2012 - 02:22 am: |
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First of all Happy New Year to all of you folks !
One thing i'm curious about in this thread is the mentioning of the focus system on the Isolette III as being a helicoid so the whole shutter/lens assy would move.
AFAIK all Isolette III's had front cell focusing, also the later models so, Cooltouch, if your Isolette III is different i would love seeing an image of the front part focusing system. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 1162
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2012 - 08:28 am: |
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I don't think you'll find either alcohol or naphtha to be up to the task, but there's no harm in trying (99% pure or better on the alcohol, though). I arrived at xylene after having tried both naphtha and 99% alcohol without success.
Soaking an entire shutter, especially with the glass in place, is always a very messy business, and there will be a lot of cleaning-up-after to do with that approach. It's a last-resort option, but sometimes it's all you have. You might try dribbling the xylene into the threads from the edge first and see if you can loosen it up that way before you resort to dunking the whole shutter. |
Brcamera
Tinkerer
Username: Brcamera
Post Number: 137
Registered: 08-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2012 - 02:01 pm: |
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To deal with a frozen helical on a front cell focusing shutter/lens assembly, I first remove the outer focus scale ring on the lens, usually held on with setscrews. This gives access to the threads and makes it possible to carefully inject the solvent of choice into the threads. After letting the solvent soak on the helical for a short while, I use a flexiclamp type of wrench on the front lens assembly to aid in removal. As long as you can access the threads by removing the focus ring and put some slight torque on the cell with the proper tool, you should have success. I would never suggest soaking a complete shutter and lens assembly in solvent! I have attached a photo of some of my flexiclamp wrenches-the can be easily made and are useful for many camera repair tasks...
Bill
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Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 188
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2012 - 08:00 pm: |
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Hey BR, thanks for the photo! What material did you make your black clamps out of? Looks like some sort of plastic? The two metal ones on the far right, are they made from stainless steel or aluminum? Also, I can see that you've labeled the two on the far right as to their size, but I don't see labels for the others. Can you give me an idea on the various other sizes? Finally you mention that these wrenches can be easily made. What sort of tools did you use to make yours? |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 225
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2012 - 08:53 pm: |
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That green goo makes a great caulk. Almost nothing can get in there to dissolve it. Naptha won't work, alcohol won't work, I have not tried Xylene, but I have tried everything else that seemed like it might work. Heat definitely does work. Just don't lose patience and try to heat it up too fast (I know a guy who tried dunking them in boiling water and shattered his lenses). You probably won't have much trouble getting the lenses out of the camera. The difficulty comes in getting the front element to unscrew from the center element; this is how the camera focuses. I've never had any difficulty in freeing the rangefinder either; it's just those two lens elements that give everyone fits. You will not need to soak the entire shutter (and that's probably a bad idea anyway, if you haven't opened it up first).
BTW, those flex clamps are sold at micro-tools. http://www.micro-tools.com/ If you get the lens elements warm enough, you should be able to turn them (with a little difficulty) with just your fingers though. Well, maybe one of those sheet rubber jar openers would help a little. |
Gemgemhk
Tinkerer
Username: Gemgemhk
Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2012 - 09:43 pm: |
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HI HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL.!!!!!!!!
After my posting in the earlier gthread about Agfa Super Solinette frozen distance setting ring, I have not started soaking it in any solvent yet, e.g xylene or acetone. But I lately dismantled a Carl Zeiss Jena telescope made in E.Germany a few decades ago and I have found how that the grease was changed, it changed gradually in 3 stages - 1. very very thick form 2. then becomes ear wax form 3.finally, it becomes hardened crystallized and sticked to form part of the lens metallic area.For the 1st and 2nd form, I think lighter fluid plus some hairdryer heat should be okay, If the grease has developed into the 3rd stage, then it will be really tough. I suggest starting from light touch first and better remove the shutter/lens unit first. |
Scott
Tinkerer
Username: Scott
Post Number: 178
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2012 - 10:27 pm: |
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With 3-element lenses like the Apotar, Trioplan, etc., even if the front lens cell is stuck insde the middle element casing, the middle element almost always unscrews very easily from the shutter housing. No grease was used on those threads.
Once you've got the middle element casing off (with the stuck front element), you can heat it without damage to the rest of the camera.
What worked for me (for triplet lenses) is heating it to 250F in the oven for at least 20 min., then grabbing it with hot-pads and twisting the pieces apart while it is still hot. The heat softens that old grease just enough.
Don't try to grasp it with tools, unless you have those nifty flexi-clamps.
But....an oven might not be the way if you have a lens with a cemented lens group like the Solinar. Try a hair-dryer. |
Brcamera
Tinkerer
Username: Brcamera
Post Number: 138
Registered: 08-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 02, 2012 - 06:15 pm: |
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Cooltouch,
I have about 40 of these flexi clamps ranging from around 10mm-50mm. Some I purchased and some I fabricated myself. The metal ones I purchased probably 30 years ago and they are made of an aluminum alloy. I used a phenolic type of material that we had in the shop to fab some of the other clamps and used a mill to cut and shape them. I don't use these clamps everyday, but when you need one they are very useful (think removing the winding lever on an M series Leica).
Bill |
Kb2qqm
Tinkerer
Username: Kb2qqm
Post Number: 28
Registered: 12-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2012 - 09:12 am: |
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I soak the lens elements in White Gas (Coleman lantern fuel) in my Ultrasonic cleaner. It usually melts enough of the solvent so that I can twist them apart with hose clamps around the taped parts. Need to get me some of those helical wrenches. I usually split the shutter. I dunk the whole Aperture section in the Ultrasonic cleaner, and then I drop the whole shutter into the Ultrasonic cleaner, minus the blades. You would be amazed at how the Ultrasonic cleaner cleans the shutter. It's just amazing. I have done about 10 isolette shutters and have a ton of fun getting them going again. They take awesome photos. Whatever you do...do not take the Aperture blades apart. Unless you enjoy torture. 
Greg |
Milosdevino
Tinkerer
Username: Milosdevino
Post Number: 23
Registered: 03-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2012 - 12:05 am: |
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I wish I didn't have to find out about the aperture blades the hard way !
I'm still trying to get them to go back together properly and it's been months.
What sort of ultrasonic cleaner is it? |
Vinzenz
Tinkerer
Username: Vinzenz
Post Number: 49
Registered: 06-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 02:41 pm: |
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I have cleaned a few Agfa lens units with very small quantities of acetone and paint remover, dropped directly into the threads with the tip of a tiny screw driver. I then let it soak for some time and clean any green stuff with cotton buds and light scrapping with a screw driver.
I do not remember exactly if acetone or paint remover was more successful, but I think the last time I used only acetone. However, I would only use it (sparingly) if everything else like naphta or alcohol have failed. |
Nickon51
Tinkerer
Username: Nickon51
Post Number: 145
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 09:26 am: |
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Hi Milo
Did U ever get those aperture blades back in. I have done a couple and they would have to rate up there as one of the most difficult. When you lay the blades back, laying one blade on top of the other, you get to a point where the stack becomes to high for the last blade to stay in its slot. I have tried a couple of things, but the most useful was to lay a piece of tape from the edge of the housing across the blades to keep them down, and the continue on. But make sure that the tape is only sticky where it is over the housing and not over the blades. I only used one piece when half the blades were in. After you drop the retaining plate on, you can still get to the sticky end of the tape to remove it.
The weight helps but you cannot fit the plate on the blades while its there.
Best of luck |
Milosdevino
Tinkerer
Username: Milosdevino
Post Number: 24
Registered: 03-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2012 - 10:44 pm: |
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Hi Nickon,
I did eventually get the blades back in, but in the wrong order and they don't close properly. I should have taken better(or some at least) notes during disassembly. Let that be a lesson to me.
I usually rely on memory to get these things right and am pretty good usually, maybe the red wine didn't help after all.
Faced with the prospect of pulling it apart and reassembling them in a different order again and again until I get it right, I have put the whole idea on the back burner. I have another shutter aseembly that has a good apperture, so might use that one instaed. |
