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Jeffk
Tinkerer
Username: Jeffk
Post Number: 63
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 09:47 am: | 
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I recently ran my first roll of film through a Leica IIIf that I picked up some time ago, and while I was surprised by the sharpness and contrast of the images (collapsible f/2 Summicron), I noticed that all the negatives had fine streaks that show up in the prints. In many years and thousands of rolls, I've never seen anything like this before. Any thoughts on the cause? Other rolls I had processed at the same time, from different cameras, did not show any streaks. I can't really get at the film plane in the Leica so I'm not sure if there's anything in there that might be responsible. |
Finnegan
Tinkerer
Username: Finnegan
Post Number: 148
Registered: 09-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 10:35 am: |
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Remove the lens. Set it on "T". Shoot it. Look at the film plane. Next test, look at the curtains before winding and after winding. Next test, load a roll, wind to exposure 1, take off the lens, leave it pointing at a lamp for 10 minutes, put the lens back on, put the lenscap on, shoot it. Wind to next exposure, shoot it with the lenscap on, remove the lens, leave it pointing at a lamp for 10 minutes. Process the film. If you have pinholes or light leaks you will see it in those test exposures of the first curtain and second curtain. |
Hollenbj
Tinkerer
Username: Hollenbj
Post Number: 22
Registered: 03-2012
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 12:16 pm: |
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I have to say, that looks suspiciously development related. I guess another test roll and a different lab is in order.
I have had very different quality developments on rolls processed "at the same time" at some labs. Your roll might have gone through the machine just before it received its scheduled cleaning, then the remaining rolls afterward.
I hope its not pinholes. Shutter curtain replacement is a bear, although not impossible.
Good luck. |
Hollenbj
Tinkerer
Username: Hollenbj
Post Number: 23
Registered: 03-2012
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 12:19 pm: |
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On second thought, pinholes might best be treated with "liquid plastic" or similar.
I still like to think its development. |
Jeffk
Tinkerer
Username: Jeffk
Post Number: 64
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 07:35 pm: |
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Interesting! Opening the shutter on T, I don't see anything on the backing plate that could cause the streaks, but when the shutter closes the first curtain I see has a weave pattern with a spacing pretty close to the spacing of the streaks in the photos. The curtain that then moves into view when I advance the film also looks cracked in one corner, and I notice now that this picture especially has a noticeable right/left top/down gradient (brightest in top right corner). I wonder if the shutter does need repair. My first thought was a processing issue too, and it may still be that but I'm not familiar enough with the processing procedure to know if any part of it might introduce periodic streaks about every half millimeter on the film.
I have no clue how to dive into this camera and it's not one I'm willing to learn on, too nice and valuable. Does anyone have a recommendation for who can go through it and repair as needed? A Leica version of Henry Scherer, perhaps? |
Brcamera
Tinkerer
Username: Brcamera
Post Number: 170
Registered: 08-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 07:58 pm: |
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The rubberized side of your shutter curtain has dried out and developed horizontal cracks, very common on screw mount Leicas of this era. The solution is to replace the curtains, a fairly major job. I have done many curtain replacements on screw mount Leicas and it can be very time consuming... |
Donnie_strickland
Tinkerer
Username: Donnie_strickland
Post Number: 153
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 06:21 am: |
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I used Mark Hama for replacement of the shutter curtains on my Leica IIIc. |
Olympfix
Tinkerer
Username: Olympfix
Post Number: 51
Registered: 05-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 06:52 am: |
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Not development related. Never seen that streaking related to development in thirty years. Definitely shutter curtain problems, sorry. Big job. |
Hollenbj
Tinkerer
Username: Hollenbj
Post Number: 24
Registered: 03-2012
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 11:32 am: |
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OK, maybe not development related, but I've seen some incredible things on film from lower-quality labs (also 30+ years). Much worse than your example, and baffling.
I know DAG does good work. I also hear good things about Sherry Krauter. I wouldn't recommend attempting curtain replacement yourself. Trust me on this one. |
Jeffk
Tinkerer
Username: Jeffk
Post Number: 65
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 04:06 pm: |
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Thanks all, I found a list including DAG and Krauter here, http://www.lhsa.org/resources/repair_services/default.aspx.
My processing experience is limited to small pieces of x-ray film developed by hand, but if the streaks are from processing they'd have to be specific to the handling of rolls on spools in machines. And if I look closely at other frames taken on the same roll, I see that not every exposure shows the streaks, and some show what appear to be short streaks associated with bright parts of the image - see below. Puzzling, to be sure I'll have to shoot more film and do what Finnegan suggests, but it does seem likely to be shutter-related.
I'd have to debate if I want to spend many hundreds on the camera. It is a little jewel but I have also have other cameras, including a perfect brand-new (Scherer-rebuilt) Contax IIIa with f/2 Sonnar, that are also very nice to use.
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Br1078lum
Tinkerer
Username: Br1078lum
Post Number: 295
Registered: 11-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 07:25 pm: |
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The thing about having the shutter replaced by any of the aforementioned experts in their field is they will do more than just replace the shutter. You'll get back a camera that is as close to the factory settings as possible, and should last quite some time, if used on a regular basis. Well worth the money.
PF |
Mr_flibble
Tinkerer
Username: Mr_flibble
Post Number: 63
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 23, 2012 - 03:21 am: |
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I'm with Brcamera. Imperfections on the edges of the curtains influence the exposure, especially at high speeds and a narrow curtain gap. |
Hollenbj
Tinkerer
Username: Hollenbj
Post Number: 27
Registered: 03-2012
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 23, 2012 - 09:58 am: |
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I would second the comment by Br1078lum, DAG or Sherry will provide you with a completely refreshed camera. To me, worth the money, especially if you have some gems to work with while the IIIf is in the shop. Otherwise, there are a number of folks on this forum who are willing to tackle a curtain replacement. I've done it, wasn't easy for me, but I'm in it for the satisfaction of keeping these gems alive as much as exposing film. |
Waynemel
Tinkerer
Username: Waynemel
Post Number: 162
Registered: 08-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 23, 2012 - 12:22 pm: |
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I'm not sure where you are located, but a local shop, Halton Camera Exchange in Georgetown Ontario is owned by a long time Leica certified technician. I'm sure he could do the repair. I have no idea of cost. |
Eskimogus
Tinkerer
Username: Eskimogus
Post Number: 41
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 01:23 pm: |
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It's actually very easy to remove the shell if you want to take a peak of you're own. i was reluctant to at first, but it's literaly very easy to.
Two black screws on front of camera, 2 screws on front where top plate (chrome) and possibly two more chrome on the back. Also you have to remove the 39mm screw mount on front (Don't forget where the black line meets up on the camera which is on the side of the mount).
Just remove the bottom door, and push the shell off the internals where it tells you how to cut the film/insert it. If it doesn't pop off, put on bulb, hold on bulb and push the pressure plate down and pull off. be carefull about the two metal springs holding the pressure plate in when it's removed.
It could be a beat up/scratched/dirty pressure plate. It could be some film chips on the sprocket inside. if you don't properly cut the film the right length, Film will get stuck inside. Other than that it could only be dirt in there.
It's really easy, check out here.
I had to patch the focal plane shutter and taking the shell off is needed.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eskimogus/5741590903/ |
Eskimogus
Tinkerer
Username: Eskimogus
Post Number: 42
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 01:24 pm: |
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I'm really cheap, so i didn;t send it in to Dag as i wanted. Actually i couldn't afford it.
It would of been $300 to have much curtuin replaced, for you're camera the $140ish for a CLA.If it he only charges for the CLA it'll be great for you. He'll have to check either way if he CLA's it for you. |
Jeffk
Tinkerer
Username: Jeffk
Post Number: 66
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 11:33 am: |
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Interesting Eskimogus, I dove into this, mine has a timer so it's more complicated but it was straightforward to get at the inside. Everything looks fine and smooth, and I suspect what everyone is telling me is correct - the shutter needs to be replaced. It also needs CLA, the film advance is pretty heavy and if I continue to use it I'd be afraid that the torque will break something inside. Just have to decide if/when I want to have it repaired. |
Hollenbj
Tinkerer
Username: Hollenbj
Post Number: 31
Registered: 03-2012
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 12:29 pm: |
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Well,
A IIIf runs $150 to $350 (except on that auction site) depending on BD, RD, and condition. Youxin gives standard price for CLA *and* new curtains on a IIIf at about $180. I suppose that's almost what you could sell the camera for. But, the value of that camera after a professional CLA and new shutter curtains is quite a bit more -- and you'd have a camera that's a joy to use. Considering you have a cron, I think its well worth the cost. |
Jeffk
Tinkerer
Username: Jeffk
Post Number: 67
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 08:48 pm: |
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As usual it was easier to take apart than put back together, and I see I've messed up somewhere in setting up the self timer. Not a huge deal since the camera needs repair anyways, but does anyone have a specific procedure for properly setting up the timer mechanism after taking off the shell? Ideally with pictures including that damn little piece just under the chrome central screw, that needs to be oriented in a specific way? |
Eskimogus
Tinkerer
Username: Eskimogus
Post Number: 44
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2012 - 12:04 pm: |
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Ask Rick Oleson.
He has a bunch of exploded views of IIIfs
I have one here somewhere
Maybe it's just gunk stuck on the winding gear, or that the winding dowel where the take up spool is bent.I don't think it'll break the shutter.
That's actually pretty cheap.
Don at Dag is about~$250 with CLA and replacement
I had a extra IIIf, but i traded it for a Leica MD that i'm now converting. If i could afford the $150 i need for the rangefinder assembly |
Eskimogus
Tinkerer
Username: Eskimogus
Post Number: 45
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2012 - 12:06 pm: |
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Btw, are those streaks light leaks or scratches?
If it's just leaks, because the shutter curtuin is old, seal it up with Liquid electrical tape, I did that with mine when the sun burned a straight hole through mine. |
John_shriver
Tinkerer
Username: John_shriver
Post Number: 74
Registered: 12-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2012 - 06:33 pm: |
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That picture was taken with the shutter at 1/1000, right? Those streaks mean that the slit is too narrow at 1/1000, and the roughness of the cloth is a large fraction of the total slit width. If the streaks don't happen at lower speeds, that confirms my diagnosis.
If the curtains had light leaks, you would have bright white stripes or dots.
The curtains are fine, the camera just needs CLA. Disassemble the whole shutter assembly, clean off ossified lube, reassemble, apply correct lube, and adjust the shutter timing.
Youxin Ye can do it rather affordably. This isn't a toughie that needs DAG or Sherry Krauter. Any classic repair shop that knows how to repair manual cameras can do it as well, you don't need to be a Leica expert.
Or get a copy of the National Camera repair manual for Leica IIIf, and do it yourself. But you need a good bit of mechanical intuition, and will need to make and/or buy some tools. |
Jeffk
Tinkerer
Username: Jeffk
Post Number: 68
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 09:29 am: |
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Might be multiple issues, there are the faint modulations (probably at fairly high shutter speed) all the way across the frame in the first pic, and streaks in the second (probably slower speed, I don't recall the settings). I'll just have it repaired properly. I sent an email to Sherry Krauter over a week ago, but no response - not a good sign, I'll try DAG next, though some other threads suggest that they are also challenging to reach via email. Haven't tried old-fashioned telephone but I'd guess that would be even less likely to succeed than email. |
Hollenbj
Tinkerer
Username: Hollenbj
Post Number: 44
Registered: 03-2012
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 09:51 am: |
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Call Don (DAG). Try odd hours. He has a different work schedule than most of us. Maybe a sign of genius? About 9:00AM CDT on Wed. seems a good time. I don't know about Sherry. I emailed her a long time ago, and got a prompt response. Both of them (and Youxin too) are really busy from what I hear. |
Eskimogus
Tinkerer
Username: Eskimogus
Post Number: 47
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 11:37 pm: |
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I've tried to contact Sherry, They've never replied to my emails.
DAG (Don) is a great guy.
Quick and easy, i would just contact Don.
He's a great guy in Oregon and will respond the same day. |
Hollenbj
Tinkerer
Username: Hollenbj
Post Number: 46
Registered: 03-2012
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 12:26 pm: |
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Actually, Don is in the city of Oregon, Wisconsin. That got me too when I first saw his mailing address. I think Wisconsin is in the Central Time Zone; just so you know when you're calling him...
I just ordered some parts from him by email. Quick, efficient communication. I've heard he can get into busy periods and neglect email. That's not his usual operating policy though. |
