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Dxqcanada
Tinkerer
Username: Dxqcanada
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2012
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 30, 2012 - 08:57 pm: | 
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Looking back into the archives there are some discussion about leather treatment, but so far I have not figured out the best solution.
I have an old ROC folding camera and the outer leather is so dried out that it flakes off. It is also dirty/dusty. The outer leather covering was black and is now showing brown over much of the covering.
The old discussions mention Neatsfoot oil, Saddle oil, Lexol (neatsfoot ?) ... any new opinions ?
Should I even attempt to restore it ? |
Marty
Tinkerer
Username: Marty
Post Number: 103
Registered: 11-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 30, 2012 - 10:09 pm: |
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This is the subject that first brought me to this group. 
I always try to save the old leather, even if it's ugly. Different situations work with different things, but for really badly dried out leather I like to use something that will really penetrate. Up until recently, I used Fiebing's Saddle Dressing for such things but I've recently switched... I came across a 4A Folding Kodak that appeared to have some mildew damage, and after an internet search I ran across some stuff called "Leather Therapy Restorer and Conditioner" that is supposed to inhibit mildew. It worked as well as Fiebings, and really brought out the old leather dye. I don't like to dye leather unless it's absolutely hodious looking and neccessary. Blot it on pretty liberally, and the next day, hit it again. It usually makes a big difference. Then, after it sits on the shelf for a few months and has NO oily feel to it, I'll give it a coat of Renaissance Wax to give it just a slight sheen. Some have said that such things can cause the leather to come unglued... Maybe, but I've never had it happen. My main fear has been putting something in the leather that might feed mold and mildew, but the Leather Therapy stuff at least claims to inhibit such things.
With absolutely AWFUL crumbly leather, I've sometimes given it a WET spray of Kiwi Suede Protector... It seems to tie it together a bit, but I haven't done it enough to know how well it works in the long run.
In less extreme cases, where I might like the brownish patina of the leather, and I don't want to really bring out the old black dye, I might use Lexol. It helps preserve the leather, but generally doesn't darken it much.
Lot's of products out there, and lots of options. I'm still open to suggestions...
Marty |
Dxqcanada
Tinkerer
Username: Dxqcanada
Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2012
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2012 - 07:52 am: |
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Thanks for the info.
I am not sure if I should just protect the worn leather or attempt to bring it back to black ... I am thinking that would be too much.
This is what I am working on:
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Dxqcanada
Tinkerer
Username: Dxqcanada
Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2012
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2012 - 07:53 am: |
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What Lexol product are you recommending ?
FYI: this is a link to the same camera in better leather condition
ROC Folding Premier |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 278
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2012 - 03:25 pm: |
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I'm not sure I am seeing this right. Where the color has worn through, is that red? If so, the leather has a condition called "red rot." Leather with red rot can't be restored. It will crumble if it cets scratched. The best you can do is to somewhat control the deterioration. This is what happens when an object made from leather that was tanned with sulphuric acid is kept in a house where coal is burned in the fireplace or in a stove. The sulphuric acid in the fumes from the burning coal eventually overwhelm the chemical they used to neutralize the acid during the tanning process. That leather is pretty much a crust of powder at this point, being held together by the leather sealer. It used to ruin whole libraries of leather-bound books. Worse yet, any leather with red rot will eat holes in any other leather it comes into prolonged contact with. You can soak it in a colliodal binding agent, but your best option is to replace the leather. |
Dxqcanada
Tinkerer
Username: Dxqcanada
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2012
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2012 - 04:25 pm: |
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Upon closer examination ... under the blackish top layer it does look like red dried out particulate.
Some of the leather has completley flaked off or has been scratched off exposing some sort of lacquer layer on top of the wood.
What would be the leather type that would be a good replacement ?
Further details about this camera: AntiqueWoodCameras:ROC Folding Premier |
Marty
Tinkerer
Username: Marty
Post Number: 104
Registered: 11-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2012 - 09:50 am: |
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That's a wonderful camera you have there,Dxgcanada! I have to confess I'm really covetous of that!
This is a very illuminating thread! I have to confess I've never heard of red rot... This led to me do some considerable googling. From what I read, I've probably seen it to varying degrees, but I've probably passed on buying most cameras that suffer from it. With a camera as nice as this one though, I'd definitely spring for it. (If I could afford it in the first place.) While definitely more complex, red rot sounds somewhat analogous to high acid paper eating itself up. The condition doesn't sound as contagious as mold and mildew, but I can see how it could "burn" other leather in contact with it.
I ran across a couple of good links, if I can get these to work:
preservation-solutions.blogspot.com/2012/02/what-is-red-rot-leather-and-how-to.html
and
jeffpeachey.wordpress.com/2012/01/31/new-treatment-for-red-rot/
Maybe it's just me, but I'd probably try to preserve the hideous old leather. I've seen some wonderful re-leathering jobs, but on antique cameras it just doesn't appeal to me. With "classic" cameras, which are more often discussed on this forum, I'd probably feel differently. Personal preference. The products Klucel G and Restoration Leather Conditioner are things I might wind up sending off for, just in case I run into something like this.
In this particular case, I might well wind up also dying the leather... I doubt if the remaining old dye would wind up looking very good, and the leather dye would also color small areas of exposed wood. Not good... I don't like it much... But if the other option is to remove all the leather anyway and go with a whole new covering... |
Dxqcanada
Tinkerer
Username: Dxqcanada
Post Number: 5
Registered: 11-2012
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2012 - 11:19 am: |
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Yes, it is a great camera ... though quite a big leap for me as I normally do not "collect" cameras, especially ones this old.
I rescued it from Silvano's old collection that was being sold off (after the company closed). Grabbed it for $75.00. We are not sure when he got this camera.
I think this is the original version in 5x7.
The original ground glass is missing, and it appears that Silvano was going to cut down a ground glass that he yanked from a more modern camera.
The two plate holders are still in the back (in great condition). I can see the original leather condition from the underside of the rear cover, so I can see that the exterior leather has "rotted" quite a bit.
A piece of wood over the front recess is also missing, and the back viewing door fabric hinges have come unglued.
The six exposure shutter is still working (though sometimes struggles to get the last one). The lacquered wood is in excellent condition, and so is the brass (I think it is brass).
Yeah, I was thinking of not replacing any original parts on this camera. Other than cleaning and stabilizing the leather, I don't think I will replace any parts.
Any other advise, on the rest of the camera, would be greatly appreciated. |
Marty
Tinkerer
Username: Marty
Post Number: 105
Registered: 11-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2012 - 02:32 pm: |
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At $75, you made a killing! That's a VERY nice camera. It looks like the innards are in pretty good shape, too. If wood is dried out badly, I'll usually use a little high quality wax... Old English is good. Renaissance Wax is very good, and doesn't get gooky like other wax eventually can, but it doesn't do much for the appearance if the wood is really dry. Any nickel parts will polish easily with something like Simichrome. Brass is usually lacquered, and it usually works well to just give it a little Renaissance wax. Best not to polish the old lacquer off. Old shutters usually are pretty easy to work on. If things are a little sticky, a little dissassembly and a cleaning with lighter fluid will usually get things working well again. Just draw pictures so you remember how it goes back together. If fabric hinges are torn, I'll usually replace them with hinges made from bias tape, like you get in fabric stores. Others in here can tell you much more, as happened in this case with "red rot."
That things IS magnificent... |
Dxqcanada
Tinkerer
Username: Dxqcanada
Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2012
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2012 - 03:57 pm: |
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We didn't intend to sell this camera, we wanted to make sure it did not go to waste by some Lomo people picking it up because it looked "cool".
Not really sure what we are going to do with it.
Yes, the innards are great ... it's the outside leather that is the weak point.
I don't think I will attempt to lube the shutter or check the spring.
The bellows are also in good shape.
Thanks for the info on the metal and hinge. |
Marty
Tinkerer
Username: Marty
Post Number: 106
Registered: 11-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2012 - 10:02 pm: |
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Well, if you do decide to get into the shutter, cleaning will probably be all it needs. Any lubrication generally eventually works it's way between the shutter blades and gums them up. Back in the late 60's when I started doing this, I cleaned shutters with gasoline... it got the oil out, but eventually they wound up needing another cleaning. Much later, I learned about using cigarette lighter fluid, which is essentially naphtha... evaporates much cleaner, and leaves no oily residue at all. Much nicer. Of course, with either material, one does well not to catch one's self on fire.
That IS a really nice camera... |
Dxqcanada
Tinkerer
Username: Dxqcanada
Post Number: 9
Registered: 11-2012
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 03, 2012 - 06:09 pm: |
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Looks like I am going on a search for Klucel G.
I may take a closer look at the shutter also. |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 282
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 01:01 pm: |
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It's a beautiful camera, but what I would do is go to a used book store and look at old bibles and hymnals. Those have thin and very high grade leather. Find an old one or two with leather that does not have red rot and take the cover(s) off, then soak them until the glue lets go. This gives you some antique or aged aged leather that is in far better shape than what you have, and (if you are good at it) you can replace the rotted leather with old leather that won't make it look slick and shiney-new. You can store it with your other cameras without worrying about it eating holes in them too. Leather is mildly acidic at best, but the acid level in red rotted leather is pretty extreme.
If you want to just stabilize it, there are materials that rare book restorers use, but those are for books that are only handled very gently with white cotton gloves and that never leave their pedestals. If you bump it, or scratch it, the damage is probably going to go very deep, even stabilized. Last leather case I had like that (the one that lead me to research red rot), I could scratch it with a fingernail and plow up a furrow the full thickness of the leather. |
Dxqcanada
Tinkerer
Username: Dxqcanada
Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-2012
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 04:32 pm: |
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Hmm, interesting idea on getting leather material ... though I would have to get a number of large books to cover this camera.
Handle is also missing. |
Marty
Tinkerer
Username: Marty
Post Number: 107
Registered: 11-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 05:54 pm: |
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Old bibles and hymnals sounds like a good source of old leather... I've never thought of that. Is there much of a problem with the leather shrinking after you soak it off? |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 283
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 07:09 pm: |
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"Handle is also missing."
Like I said, red rotted leather is fragile.
"Is there much of a problem with the leather shrinking after you soak it off?"
Very little. Soaking it in various solutions is part of the tanning process, so it has already shrunk about as much as it is going to. The one that is infamous for shrinking is rawhide, but that is not used for book covers. If it was going to shrink, it would be a real problem gluing it to the end papers. |
Dxqcanada
Tinkerer
Username: Dxqcanada
Post Number: 12
Registered: 11-2012
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2012 - 04:14 pm: |
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Hmm, I have been thinking about this now for some days ... I have never re-covered a wood box camera like this before, so I am a little overwhelmed by the concept.
I've only done recovering of TLR's using leatherette.
Not sure where to go from here ... stabilize with Klucel G and clean up everything else ... or go for the big re-covering (and do a lot of research on the process while looking for old leather bound books). |
Dxqcanada
Tinkerer
Username: Dxqcanada
Post Number: 13
Registered: 11-2012
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2012 - 06:57 pm: |
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I am going for stabilizing the leather with Cellugel.
I will fix the missing groundscreen.
Replace the fabric hinge ... what do you think of Binder Tape ?
Clean up the brass and wood. |
Marty
Tinkerer
Username: Marty
Post Number: 108
Registered: 11-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2012 - 10:44 pm: |
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Some would argue. Fallisphoto is obviously more experienced than I. However, I'm with attempting to stabilize the leather. I don't stack my cameras anyway, and one can always go back and remove the old leather. Once it's gone though, it's gone. Re-covered antique cameras tend to look to me like elderly actresses that have had too much cosmetic surgery. I avoid it if possible.
I'm not sure what binder tape is... But if it's fabric, it'll probably work to repair the hinge. I use bias tape because it's readily available. It's sort of a pre-creased strip of fabric with the weave going through it at an angle. Easy to find in sewing supplies, and easy to use. |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 286
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 10:44 pm: |
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If you're not sure, or don't have the skills needed, then I'd stabilize it. That will at least keep it from getting worse or damaging anything else. Oh yeah, by the way, the dust (powdered rotten leather) from the thing is sometimes toxic too, so stabilizing it is probably a good idea even if you are going to releather it. You wouldn't believe what substances they used to make things like morrocco leather for camera coverings and book bindings back then. Ingredients used in tanning leather can include things like skin grease, urine, feces and rotting brains. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning Probably not a good idea to put old leather in your mouth! |
Irshsmiles
Tinkerer
Username: Irshsmiles
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2012
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 17, 2012 - 10:03 pm: |
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HI ..I RECONDITION ANTIQUES OF ALL KINDS AND FIX THEM ALSO....I HAVE FOUND 'DOC BAILRY'S LEATHER TONIC-CLEANS, NOURISHES AND PROTECTS..BROUGHT SO MANY LEATHER ITEMS BACK TO LIKE..AWWII BOMBER JACKET FROM THE ADMIRAL ON A USS CARRIER..HIS JACKET LOOKS GREAT.now mine..ALLIGATOR/ SNAKESKIN BOOTS THAT WERE PEELING..RUBBED IN DIRECTION OF SKIN 1 X 3DAYS..LOOK lIKE NEW...NOT OVERDONE..FIND IT BY GOOGLE, I KNOW ALOT OF HARLEY DAVIDSON SHOPS USE IT ON LEATHER...SOMETIMES I MAKE UP MY OWN RECIPES..BUT THIS ONE IS A WWINNER..GOOD LUCK |
Dxqcanada
Tinkerer
Username: Dxqcanada
Post Number: 15
Registered: 11-2012
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - 03:15 pm: |
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Thanks for the info.
But have you encountered this type of Rot ? |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 287
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - 05:11 pm: |
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Irshsmiles,
I restore antiques too, mostly cameras and clocks, and this is a nightmare for a restorer. This is red-rotted leather. It has pretty much deteriorated to powder form, and is being held together by the leather sealer (probably a varnish, considering the era). If you press too hard on it, it crumbles and if you bend it, it breaks. It has been destroyed by sulphuric acid from coal-fire fumes and there is not much left to restore. If it was a book in a library, they would either replace the leather (rebind it) or soak the leather in a fixative and put it permanently on a pedestal and never touch the leather, only turning the pages occasionally. There is nothing left that can really be called leather at this point. If you look at the photo, that big spot on the side is where something has rubbed against it and the material has crumbled to dust, leaving a few bits of powder stuck in the shellac that was used to stick the leather down. Whatever rubbed it was probably not even sharp. I think the existing leather is beyond hope of restoration. At this point, it can be soaked with a preservative (something to harden it somewhat and keep it from falling apart with anything but very gentle handling), but that is about it. There are no fibers left, just powder. |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 289
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 01, 2013 - 10:24 am: |
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A little more information for those who are interested:
Products like Cellugell and Klucell are not leather restoratives, but stabilizers. They will not make the leather usable or even flexible. Nothing will do that. They just stop it from getting worse and make it hard enough to withstand gentle handling. Imagine taking a 200-year-old piece of burnt toast, soaking it in a solution of white glue and letting it harden and you will have some idea of the results you can expect. A hundred years ago, they would have melted beeswax into it to achieve pretty much the same effect, but it would have darkened the leather. |
Marty
Tinkerer
Username: Marty
Post Number: 109
Registered: 11-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2013 - 09:55 am: |
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Thanks for that. It might not be perfect, but there's a time and a place for everything. About that toast... I think I'll pass... |
