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chris burck
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 11:05 pm: | 
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remember the hi-matic 9 i've been trying to bring back to life? the problems just seem to be snowballing.
nothing that i've tried has unstuck the shutter. lighter fluid loosens it up at first, but as soon as it dries out, it's stuck again. at first i was just flushing it with naphtha. then i removed the front rings of the lens and put it face down in a naphtha bath, occasionally winding and firing the mechanism. that still didn't work, so i did it again. still nothing.
in fact, now it's stuck open. worse, the vapors from the naphtha bath worked into the helicoid, so that's frozen now, too (i was kind of afraid that might happen). it seems now that i'm going to have to take the lens out of the helicoid, break it down, and either continue with the naptha baths (full immersion this time?), or try a more aggressive solvent. maybe carburetor cleaner? does anyone know whether this shutter has any plastic parts? it's a seiko-fla.
what do people think? does this seem like the appropriate course of action?
when i put it back to gether, what do people recommend as lubricant for the helicoid? |
Vlatko
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 12:36 am: |
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Hi Chris!
I've had similar experiences with naptha, it does
clean old dirt and dried-up lubricants nicely,
but often the mechanism remains 'too dry' and
more or less 'stuck' after the naptha evaporates.
Perhaps someone will enlighten both of us about
proper lubrication for this type of shutter
mechanism (oil or grease? do we put it only on
the pivots or...?). I'ld just like to tell you
that I got my shutter (in a 1918 Haeg 19x12cm folding plate camera) working again by
immersing in petroleum (=kerosene, or paraffin oil, the liquid used as fuel in some lamps and
heaters). It takes a longer time to evaporate than naptha, but leaves an oily film (I wiped
off everything I could reach with a q-tip, especially the shutter blade surfaces). Probably
not the best solution, also very smelly ... so,
please, I'ld also like to read the proper way
to lubricate shutters if anyone can tell us.
For the helicoid ... helicoid grease...but what is it? Squashed bananas? Orca lard? I've read
some warnings about fumes evaporating from the
helicoid lubricant condensing on the lens glass,
so if someone can tell us what the grease is
(not only a brand name, which of course helps the
people who can buy it where they live, but leaves some of us feeling frustrated ...).
Thanks,
Vlatko |
David Nebenzahl
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 01:03 am: |
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Cleaning and lubricating old shutters? Maybe not the complete story, but my web page on the subject should give you some idea of where to start. (It's on servicing the old Compur dialset shutters.) |
Howard
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 04:57 am: |
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Hi Chris. I posted somehere here that I had great success with dissolving helicoid grease with a product called Shellite made by the Shell Oil Company. I imagine Esso or any of the other major oil companies probably have something similar. If you can get it and plan to use it I would remove the shutter from the camera and remove all the lens elements first. Prior to that I had the whole assembly soaking in lighter fluid for a week with similar results to you. The Shellite did a fantactic job on my old Petri in only a few minutes. To lubricate the helicoid later I used a silicon bicycle grease which had been recommended either on this site or somewhere else, anyhow I now have the smoothest focussing Petri 2.8 that I have ever felt.
I actually bought this great cameras new back in approx 1959 and from memory it was fairly stiff even new, much better now. I also used the grease on the front focussing element of a Voigtlander Vito II and it worked very well on that too. Hope this helps. Good luck with your attempts. |
chris burck
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 01:19 pm: |
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thanks, david, i already saw that page when i cleaned my old compound shutter a short time ago. i think that's where i got the idea for doing the long soak with this here himatic 9 shutter.
it may be of interest to some that the shutter freed up again after i discovered that one end of a spring (wire non-coiled type) in the film advance ratchet mechanism had come unseated. i reseated it, gave the mechanism a little back-and-forth, and it unjammed. somehow this was feeding back into the shutter, because after a short time the shutter clocked-out and closed again.
shutter is still sticking closed, though now the slow-speed gears are ticking down so the naphtha treatments do seem to be having an effect. maybe i won't have to break it all completely apart after all. i'd really hate to have to resolder all those closely spaced connections! :-(( |
chris burck
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 01:27 pm: |
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vlatko, hi.
i've read repeatedly that the copal shutter is not supposed to be lubricated. it's meant to run completely dry. admittedly it's not the same shutter as i am working on, but i'm going on the assumption that it has more in common with mine than a compur would. i'd appreciate anyone's input on this that has experience with the seiko-fla.
are there any sources for japanese shutter repair manuals/books? (i guess i should double-check in the books section, but i don't remember seeing anything about that).
but you're right about the kerosene. i've been thinking about getting some for certain applications. it would certainly have it's place in a more complete disassembly where there's less chance of it getting where you don't want it. |
chris burck
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 01:40 pm: |
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howard, thanks for the tip. that silicon grease might be just the thing. i think i'll actually have a chance to get some tomorrow evening.
i'll see what i can find in the way of this shellite stuff you mentioned (is it in a pour container or a spray?) i figure removing the lenses should always be a given when trying a clean job on a shutter, and separating it from the helicoid to be preferable. i was trying to short-cut it though, since disassembling/reassembling this particular camera is no simple job.
anyway, thanks everybody for the helpful info. i'm beginning to fell better about my chances at pulling this one off! |
Howard
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 03:45 pm: |
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Hi Chris. My shellite is in a rectangular tin container approx 8 inches high, 2.5 inches wide and about 1 inch deep. It's a pour container. I'm not sure exactly what it's for but it may be a dry cleaning type solvent. With the Petri I just soaked the helicoid assembly. It didn't appear to have any detrimental effects on any of the components, the Petri focussing ring is painted and it survived perfectly. |
Howard
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 05:20 am: |
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Hi Chris, I must have had a senior moment. I got home from work, went to the garage, found the Shellite except it was in a 500ml clear brown plastic bottle with a white lid. I don't know where I got the tin idea from. Anyhow I looked it up on the internet and it appears to be a primarily a fuel for Coleman type fuel camping stoves etc. |
David Nebenzahl
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 11:25 am: |
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While this stuff (Shellite) will probably work, I see no reason to go to such trouble to find a suitable solvent to clean a focusing helix of grease. You can use basically any petroleum distillate, including the canonical Ronsonol. Oridnary paint thinner (mineral spirits) will work just as well. This ain't rocket science. (If you check the late Steve Grimes' web site, you'll see that they use paint thinner or equivalent, and they're recognized as among the best in the business at shutter repairs.)
Actually, I've settled on the cheaper variety of lighter fluid, the kind used to fire up the barbeque, in favor of the more-expensive cigarette lighter fluid. It might be just a tad more heavy, but it evaporates without leaving any kind of residue behind, and it comes in larger containers (1 qt.) for cheaper, so it's what I use.
(You can usually get it for around $2 USD per squirt bottle.) |
chris burck
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 11:42 pm: |
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there seems to be some confusion as to what i wanted what for.
i was inquiring as to something more potent than ronsonol, not for the helicoid, but for the shutter. repeated flushes, followed by consecutive prolonged baths, failed to unstick it. not knowing whether the seiko-fla has any plastic parts, i was unsure what would be safe to use.
the helicoid entered the picture because vapors from the prolonged soaks of the shutter apparently had done their work on the lubricant in the helicoid, which had seized up. that part of the story has taken a new twist, however, which has me clueless (see new thread).
anyway, hope this clarifies things. |
chris burck
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2004 - 12:00 am: |
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david, thanks for pointing that out. i was pondering the feasibiity of using charcoal starter myself. i definitely like the larger contaier size. wasn't sure whether it was safe to use on plastics, though. your tip came just on time, too, since i need to get a fresh bottle of lighter fluid. :*) |
chris burck
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2004 - 12:07 am: |
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howard, don't worry about it. i went earlier today to the auto parts store to see what i could find.
there was nothing resembling your stuff. i saw lots of different brands of carb cleaners/engine degreasers. they seemed a little too volatile. then i happened on electronic parts cleaner, which i remembered seeing some favorable posts about in this site. it seems very effective. wish it came in sizes larger than 4 oz., though. |
Stuart Willis
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 04:23 am: |
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Shellite is indeed a lamp fuel but it is pure refined petroleum and is ideal for flood cleaning of shutters etc. Use helicoil grease as specially formulated for camera use. It comes in three basic viscosities according to the helix loading. "Losimol" (Germany) makes a wide range of greases for cameras and microscopes.
One of the properties of these special lubricants is that the do not emit vapours to contaminate the optics.
Your shutter problem is probably congealed grease on the activator ring. It's tough to shift. Unless you are prepared to strip it all right down, just repeatedly flood-clean and keep activating during the process. It will eventually clear (hopefully).
You should not grease the leaf-shutter pivots.
Assemble all perfectly dry - after polishing with graphite powder. Ensure no graphite powder particles remain on the blades otherwise they will soon contaminate adjacent glass surfaces and will appear as little sparklers.
Hope this helps |
David Nebenzahl
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 10:04 am: |
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Concerning graphite lubrication, a small tip: forget about graphite powder. It will form "sparklers" on the surfaces of your lens no matter what you do.
Instead, just rub the places you want to lubricate (like the shutter blades and their pivot points) with a soft pencil. It'll leave just the right amount of graphite without leaving powdery residue that can migrate (and as we know, clean glass surfaces have a strange magnetic quality that attracts any loose foreign matter within a lens!). |
Tony Sansone
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 02:35 pm: |
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Interesting comments about lubing a shutter with graphite and the star effects when it gets on the lens. Also comments about the shutter blades not being free after soaking in lighter fluid and stronger substances. I am not an expert, but I can tell you what has worked for me.
To overcome this, soak the shutter in warm lighter fluid. Yes, it will flash on you if you make it too hot. I do mine in a sonic cleaner in the middle of the drive way and uplug it before approaching. Work the shutter blades and get the goo that is making them stick to disperse across the blades. Remove with a Q tip lightly dipped in lighter fluid. If you have dipped, soaked, and otherwise cleaned the shutter and it still sticks it is because there is goo under the blades. Only takes a very small amount to make them stick. Forcing the blades can sheer the rivets/ruin the blades.
As you start to get the blades clean, and it can take a while/hours, puff some fine moly lube (Nye Molylube No 16 Pure) on to the blades and around where they are seated. Puffing moly lube means you put some in a small squeeze bottle with a blunt syringe needle, shake it, keep it upright, and puff the dispersed lube where you want it to go. Work the moly in and the shutter will become free. The moly will also coat any remaining goo you missed and cause the blades to glide over the goo.
I have never used graphite, and my mentor told me never to use it on a shutter. Graphite is a lube of sorts, but is way too abrasive for shutters, and especially the blades I would think. Could be part of the problem noted. None of the fine watchmakers I have visited use graphite. Some do use moly.
No matter what you put on a shutter, it will eventully migrate to the lens or evaporate on it. Some moly will get there too if you use an excessive amount. It can be cleaned off until you figure out just how much is the right amount. Any that gets on the inner workings of the shutter will help lube it. The old time repair guys in Germany that I talked to all use moly. They tell me most German shutters were made to run dry, i.e. no oil. But they all use moly on them.
Above may be wrong for some reason and I would like to learn. The process above has allowed me to get some really stubborn Seiko shutters going again and perform flawlessly. Another potential problem is magnetism. I had a shutter that would not work no matter what I did. My mentor discovered it was highly magnetic, demagnitized it, and it worked/the speeds came back to normal.
I try my best to restore Seikosha S and Seiko No 0 shutters. Any hints or tips from anyone appreciated. Tony |
Winfried
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 12:24 am: |
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I had the best results by disassembling the shutter and cleaning each blade separately. Also I wipe the surfaces they run against. This is sometimes less time consuming than soaking a shutter, and 100% successful. Soaking is not a guaranteed success - I have seen shutters (with front-element focussing lenses) where the grease had migrated EVERYWHERE including leaving a layer of green grease on the shutter bottom. |
WernerJB
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 11:56 am: |
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I can fully confirm Tony's input on shutters and blades. A Citizen-MVL or a Seiko-FLA will not work without any lube at all, moly is the right thing for the cocking mechanism, thin watchoil can be used for other purposes. Blades must not be lubed (if they stick together they are not clean or worn). One has to be aware of the fact that any kind of lube will attract and catch dust particles.
It is a senseless procedure to "flush" a shutter, and then leave all the goo inside, but I guess that is what many people do. If you stop cleaning when a shutter shows faint signs of life, you stop too early.
For those who - like me - try to avoid a complete knock-down of a shutter (if it just needs cleaning and no repair in the literal sense of the word is necessary) it is essential that dirt is really removed from the mechanism.
Sometimes, however, Winfried's method is the only way to get rid of greasy grime. |
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