| Author |
Message |
    
Dragunov
Tinkerer
Username: Dragunov
Post Number: 67
Registered: 10-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 10:30 pm: | 
|
i've been toying with the idea of making a digital back for a while... and I think I've found the perfect candidate: the Nikon F. but, not owning a DSLR myself, I have no idea what i'd be getting into.
a few things:
could you swap between digital and film in the field? would dust be a big problem? how do systems like the Leica R9 and Hasselblad do it?
who could I bring my ideas to to make such a thing? anyone? you?
comments/suggestions?
another crazily ambitious projekt by...
Dragunov |
Petercat
Tinkerer
Username: Petercat
Post Number: 38
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 12:13 am: |
|
I am about halfway along to making a digital back for a Canon F1. Some of the problems have been:
a.) The thickness of the sensor, with infrared filter, etc prevents the sensor from lying at the film plane without hitting the shutter curtains. No infinity focus.
b.) communication between the camera and the back, ie telling the sensor to start and stop gathering light.
c.) finding and pulling out all necessary circuitry from the digital doner, then mounting it into the back.
d.) different circuits require different voltages, how do you tell which goes where and how much?
I have already destroyed one Canon EOS, I will probably destroy another or two before I am finished, but I will, by God, have a digital F1 on which I can mount my FD lenses! Just to spite Canon, which seems to have gone to great lengths to make sure that no FD lens will EVER be used with full function on a digital camera!
It has become personal.
I even thought about machining the face of a 10D so that I could mount an A1 lens mount, but no go. Too much circuitry. |
Petercat
Tinkerer
Username: Petercat
Post Number: 39
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 12:23 am: |
|
Dust would not be a problem, as you will be keeping the cover on the sensor. Do not remove it for infinity focus, the sensor is VERY fragile!
While I will be able to open the F1 back, I doubt if I will ever be able to use film in the camera again. No need, anyway, as F1 bodies are fairly cheap, I now have four. |
Petercat
Tinkerer
Username: Petercat
Post Number: 40
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 12:29 am: |
|
Now, if anyone has any circuit diagrams for ANY EOS-D series camera they'd like to share, that would be a big help... |
Dragunov
Tinkerer
Username: Dragunov
Post Number: 68
Registered: 10-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 09:01 pm: |
|
ooh! ooh! ooh!
I happen to have (but not own, it's just... there.) a F-1 as well, and I thought that a digi back would be super nice...
some ideas:
communicating with the sensor: why not try the flash circuit? I think it makes the flash fire when the first curtain opens fully... or something.
or you could try linking it to that holy crap arm that controls the aperture, put a few contacts there, and when the aperture stops down, power on, when the aperture opens, power up. get my drift?
is it a EOS 1D that you ruined, or something smaller? those are pricy.
how thick are the filters? you could try to squeeze some part in the rectangular hole behind the shutter... but you've probably tried that already.
where do the batteries and brains go? film chamber? card?
I assume you've tried to ask Canon for circuit diagrams...?
by sensor cover- do you mean the filters?
why would you not be able to use film on it anymore?
pictures? pictures?
yeah, how DOES Leica do it?
thanks! |
Petercat
Tinkerer
Username: Petercat
Post Number: 41
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 01:24 am: |
|
You don't ask much, do you Dragonuv..
By the way, nice rifle, if a bit heavy. Do you have one? A SPETNAZ sniper showed me a neat accuracy trick once...
1) It was a pair of D30s that I've burned out. One left to go before I have to buy more.
2) I'm using a microswitch behind the mirror, not enough room in the aperature lever box. One reason I won't be able to use film in it. Flash contact won't work, I need a continuous signal that begins before curtain 1 opens, and ends after curtain 2 closes.
3) I'm mounting the sensor vertically, like a half-frame camera, and so must machine out the film guides, the other reason I won't be able to use film. Don't argue with me on this... I LIKE vertical shooting, and it's my camera. If anyone thinks that's a "Stupid Idea", as I've already heard, build your own damned F1d.
4) For power, I am going to tap into the battery pack of my Motor Drive FN. This will let me grab different voltages as needed, as soon as I burn out a couple more d30s figuring out what they are...
5) Canon won't provide circuit diagrams. One more bit of support for my conspiracy theory, that Canon doesn't want digital photographers to use FD lenses. They want us to buy limited-life EF lenses (limited compared to FD lenses, that is).
5) Yes, I mean filters.
6) I think I can fit all the brains into the back.
7) No pictures yet, I'm still destroying digitals and not ready to move up to destroying an F1 until I'm sure I can recycle it into an F1d. Sure be nice to have a digital SLR with interchangeable finders and that huge Motordrive! |
Petercat
Tinkerer
Username: Petercat
Post Number: 42
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 01:36 am: |
|
Why would you want a digital back for a Nikon, anyway? I mean, the lenses you have will work with the Nikon digitals with exceptions. I'm converting an F1 because I have a LOT of FD lenses. Okay, it's also because Canon doesn't want me to. But still, a Nikon?
I am also looking at other digital SLR cameras like Olympus, maybe I can find one with a shorter film-to-flange distance that I can modify to take FD lenses, at least I could use them stopped down!
One way or another, I WILL use my FD lenses to take digital photos with their original focal length, contrast and resolution. |
Petercat
Tinkerer
Username: Petercat
Post Number: 43
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 01:54 am: |
|
Now watch, the day I finish my obsession and have a working F1d (And several smoked D30s D60s, and maybe a 10D or two), Canon will announce production of an EOS 5d with a mechanical FD lens mount. C'mon, Canon... You'd sell thousands! |
Harryrag
Tinkerer
Username: Harryrag
Post Number: 7
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 04:19 am: |
|
Although I must admit until recently I have also sympathised for a while with the idea of a "digital back" for my SLRs the project now reminds me of that vintage tube radio emptied out and refurbished with an IC operated receiver: a chimera, a worst case scenario.
With so many of their former competitors out of the way Nikon and Canon can do what they want and will sell thousands. |
Petercat
Tinkerer
Username: Petercat
Post Number: 45
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 04:33 am: |
|
That is true. Nikon and Canon can do what they want, as can I. It is my camera. But it is not a chimera, unlike the radio you mentioned. My F1d will have a real purpose which no other camera can meet: To use my extensive collection of FD lenses on a digital SLR. Period. This is not, as you call it, a "worst case scenario". I believe it to be more in the way of combining the best of both worlds, the ease and convenience of digital with the long-term reliability of the FD lenses and cameras. If you don't think the idea has merit, fine. Don't build one. But I am unwilling to pay Canon over $10,000 to replace my existing lenses with new lenses which probably have a much more limited lifespan than say, my just-repaired FD300mmf2.8... try finding a replacement focus motor for a first-generation EF300f2.8-they are unavailable, and without it the lens cannot be focused. Just an example. There ARE those of us who don't have to have the newest gee-wiz high tech camera in order to feel like real photographers. |
Petercat
Tinkerer
Username: Petercat
Post Number: 46
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 04:36 am: |
|
Sorry. That last sentence was uncalled for. |
Harryrag
Tinkerer
Username: Harryrag
Post Number: 8
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 05:10 am: |
|
My gear would fully meet your demands, as far as I can see from what you say about yours. With one exception. It does not offer any chance to get the best of what you call "both" worlds. Elsewhere here I read "you can't have everything", and that is true, so why aiming at making bifurcating ends meet?
More by chance than interest I just read your encouraging input in another thread, having that in mind I boldly ask what is your definition of a "real" photographer, can there be unreal ones? |
Paul_ron
Tinkerer
Username: Paul_ron
Post Number: 108
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 07:36 am: |
|
Strap a scanner to the back of a LF camera. |
Jayd
Tinkerer
Username: Jayd
Post Number: 5
Registered: 06-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 09:55 am: |
|
Keep at it Petercat! I agree it is a very dirty trick to make all prior lenses useless on a new model camera. |
Dgillette4
Tinkerer
Username: Dgillette4
Post Number: 214
Registered: 04-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 11:32 am: |
|
One thing that hasn't been mentioned, The older 35s last longer than any digital, citing the above examles.I'd love to have the flexability of switching between film or digital. Oh well I guess I will just settle for photo cds from the lab. don |
Glenn
Tinkerer
Username: Glenn
Post Number: 367
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 06:51 pm: |
|
I certainly wish Peter well in his project, but I do think he is over reacting in trying to whip up a conspiracy theory. For a number of well stated reasons, the FD mount was never going to be ideal for auto focus lenses. Canon took a brave step when they introduced the EF mount, it could have all gone pear shaped. The all important property is auto focus, and I can honestly state that my EF 'L' lenses have stood up very well to hard professional use. I still have much of my earlier FD kit - but rarely use it professionally, preferring (much to my initial surprise) to add a 35mm EOS body to my two 1Ds digitals.
I somehow doubt the economic viability of an FD mount digital body. Canon are no mugs, and their homeland customers are very demanding. If the company thought there was a profit in the product, it would have already been produced. |
Dragunov
Tinkerer
Username: Dragunov
Post Number: 69
Registered: 10-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 07:30 pm: |
|
no SVD for me, they're illegal here  heck, I can't even get a lisence yet.
"I'd love to have the flexability of switching between film or digital."
bingo!
and as why i'd want to make a digital Nikon F- well, I think it could be a good candidate since the whole back comes off, not just a hinged cover. you could make a bigger bottom thing, and keep the batteries and stuff there. haha, I have one FD lens and 2 pentax lenses (borrowing stuff is awesome- until you drop them...)
and that feel of a good 'ol mechanical camera- no spastic plastic for me, please! and i'd love to go on a spending spree ( or bracket X10) without killing my bank.
I don't think you understand... if you open up the bottom cover, there is a little arm that stops down the aperture. actually, it pokes out of the mirror box too. anyhoo, you could probably attach a small homemade switch to the part exposed when you open up the cover... well, I have a FTb and you could do that. the F-1's interior is busy, and i can't recall if there's space... i'll try to get a picture sometime.
another thing you likely have thought of: etch into the focusing screens the area the sensor covers. if you could switch between the digi back and film, you could switch screens....
could you use a specially-made CCD, like one found in a Med. format camera? I think Leica had Kodak make a thin CCD for their R9 back.
will the back bulge out? will there be a LCD?
do you think any businesses would be interested in building such a thing? it would be a nice niche product, but knowing things, it would probably cost alot (or at least too much for me). lame. but it's not cheap anyway, is it?
and Petercat, how much experience do you have with these sort of electronics? I took apart a spotmatic F and the 15 or so wires in the way to disassembly bugged me... a DSLR must be genuinely scary.
what does a destroyed digital look like? or shall I google it...
done...for now. |
Paul_ron
Tinkerer
Username: Paul_ron
Post Number: 109
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 04:37 am: |
|
There is a 35mm digital converter that is mounted in a 35mm film canister. It looks like a canister with a toungue sticking out of it. Pop it into the film camera and shoot away. I'll try to find the link later tonight. |
Petercat
Tinkerer
Username: Petercat
Post Number: 48
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 11:33 am: |
|
Geez, what a hornet's nest!
Yes, I've seen Canon's stated reasons for doing away with the FD mount, but they all center around the "Superiority" of electronic over mechanical linkages. I will address some of these, and hope that I will for once get a reasoned response, instead of an emotional one "How dare you second guess the great God, Canon!" or the mindless one, "The superiority of the EF mount cannot be denied!" So, Glenn, could you please explain what the "Well stated reasons" have been? I haven't seen any. Please don't take any of this personally. I just get so tired of watching "Common belief" morph into "Common knowledge".
1) Electronics may be more accurate than mechanical, but if the mechanical system was accurate enough then this is a useless point to make. Also, the mechanical will usually give you some warning of coming failure, the electronic usually fails without warning.
1b) I said USUALLY. I did NOT say ALWAYS! Please do not flood me with examples that prove I don't know what I'm talking about, okay? I didn't say always.
2) Canon could have converted the FD mount to an all-electronic one. The new mount would have all the functionality of the EF mount, with the added ability of using FD lenses if only in a stopped-down mode. Minus the electronics, I fail to see the "superiority" of the EF mount. Unless it could be that it forces loyal Canonphiles to invest in an entirely new and profitable supply of lenses. Would Canon have sold as many lenses if we could have used our FDs? Probably, but not as swiftly. Only superiority I can see...
3) My oldest lens is a 300mm f2.8 Flourite. Anything likely to break without my help can be machined anew. After 40 years. Where are you going to find a motor or circuit board for your EF in even 20 years? These will fail without abuse by you, and cannot be made by anyone save Canon.
4) Yes, I know yours have seen a lot of hard use and are still going strong. I would expect them to. Canon makes a great product. BUT, someday the electronics or motor WILL fail.
5) No, I am not afraid of high-tech nor do I hate digital photography. I use digital and film as the situation requires. Imaging is a tool to be used.
6.) I have already explained why I want an F1d. If you don't think my reasons are valid, fine. Don't build one. But, since I own my F1 cameras and the digitals I hope to gut, I see no problem with doing it myself.
7) Harrayrag, how would your equipment meet my demands? I want to use my FD lenses for digital photography, and be able to use the sports finder and the critical focus finder.
8) A "real" photographer is someone who makes photographs. Period.
9) I have an EOS1 for film use with my EOSd lenses, sadly I cannot afford to replace my FD collection with an equivalent EF collection. I can, however, afford to make an F1d. And I will.
10)A destroyed Digital looks like a pile of parts. No scorch marks or flames, just a pathetic little pile of chips that gave their all to answer that age-old question, "What happens if I do this?"
11. The back will bulge out like a databack, there will be an LCD, I am going to transplant intact the rear control panel and LCD from whatever EOS survives.
I hope this is at least a start on answering your concerns. |
Petercat
Tinkerer
Username: Petercat
Post Number: 49
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 11:43 am: |
|
Dragunov-
I hope you get an SVD someday. It is a fantastic piece of equipment! |
Petercat
Tinkerer
Username: Petercat
Post Number: 50
Registered: 01-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 01:25 pm: |
|
P.S.-
The answer to #10 above is all too often "Very bad things". |
|
