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Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 123
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 05, 2010 - 10:48 pm: | 
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Regarding the Konica S2 I have been working on, I have fixed a host of issues. But when I closed it this final time, the shutter releases as soon as I advance. Any idea where I should look for the problem?
Thanks. |
Harryrag
Tinkerer
Username: Harryrag
Post Number: 190
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 03:20 am: |
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This usually means that the shutter is not fully cocked. A number of reasons, including blades still not clean, may cause this. If you take off the bottom cover you can see what is happening, i.e. when the shutter starts to open while advancing the wind lever. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 124
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 07:53 am: |
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The shutters are closed as I cock the lever. The moment it reaches the end of its travel and starts to return, the shutters start to open. It as if the release button was already pressed.
And if I control the speed of the lever's return, shutters open with that slower speed.
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Harryrag
Tinkerer
Username: Harryrag
Post Number: 192
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 09:49 am: |
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Yes, I know, that is why I responded to your initial post.
In order to prevent this from happening the advance lever is usually coupled with a ratchet system, so that a half cocked shutter does NOT open too early when the lever is let loose during the winding of the film. You can observe a shutter doing what you describe when it is separated from a camera and cocked manually. As soon as you stop pushing the cocking pin in the middle of the lever's travel the shutter blades open and can be stopped or slowed down by stopping or preventing the lever to return to starting position.
Let me repeat my idea, maybe your shutter is not fully cocked when the winding lever reaches its end position. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 125
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 10:33 am: |
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Thanks. I have the lens part dissembled. I have also taken out the cocking pin from the body and I am trying to cock the shutter manually as you describe.
The rear element is off. I have cleaned the shutter and aperture blades from the rear.
I have given the shutter several trials and I see what you describe. You are right, the shutter is probably not being fully cocked. How do I verify this? |
Harryrag
Tinkerer
Username: Harryrag
Post Number: 193
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 11:56 am: |
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As I said in my first post in this thread you can see part of what is happening when moving the advance lever with the bottom cover removed.
With the help of a toothed rack in the camera's bottom the swing of the wind lever is "translated" into a turning movement of a hollow shaft that engages with an axle protruding from the shutter; operating the lever results in the shutter being cocked by winding this axle. It is important now to make sure there is not too much play where the movement of the lever is transmitted to the other moving parts along the line.
But a faulty shutter like you descibe it may also have other issues, so before you take apart things all too eagerly, eliminate all other sources of trouble, like dirty blades. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 126
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 12:09 pm: |
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I see that when I advance the winding lever, the rack (cyan arrow) that turns the winding key of the shutter does not go past the little one way lock (magenta label). I think I might have screwed up something while reseating the lens.
On a related note: I cleaned the aperture blades with naphtha, but now they even stickier to move. Do I need to lubricated their moving lever or something?
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Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 127
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 03:04 pm: |
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I had initially cleaned the aperture blades one twice with q-tips and naphta. They were sticking every more after that.
I then repeated that procedure with q-tips several times, each with a new q-tip. No luck.
Did some reading about shutters, and said to myself what the heck and disassembled the shutter mechanism from the base of the lens mount and gave it a naphtha bath, twice. I have since blow dried it and so far the aperture blades are snappy and free moving.
So next up is the problem I was discussing here. While reseating the lens back into the body, what are the points I should keep in mind? I seem to have missed something important last night when I assembled the camera back.
Perhaps it is the metal arc that matches the aperture with the one shown by the meter. Is there a trick to reseat that as well? |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 128
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 05:53 pm: |
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Perhaps what is clear an important doubt of mine is the answer to this question. Does that rack gear, which translates the winding motion to the winding of the shutter, retract to its resting position after the winding stroke has reached its end?
Also, when if I try to cock the shutter myself (took out the gear that drives its axle), I can rotate its winding shaft but it never cocks opens immediately as I release the turning force. Is this supposed to happen?
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David_nebenzahl
Tinkerer
Username: David_nebenzahl
Post Number: 202
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 06:13 pm: |
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Well, that last statement, if accurate, tells me something's screwed up inside the shutter. If you turn the shaft, it should cock the shutter without opening the blades. If it doesn't cock--it sounds like it's not "sticking"--then something's not right inside the shutter itself.
And yes, the rack should retract at the end of the winding stroke. The rack and pinion is a very common shutter-cocking arrangement in rangefinder cameras; it's used in my Paxes, my Super Paxette and in my Aires 35. |
David_nebenzahl
Tinkerer
Username: David_nebenzahl
Post Number: 203
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 06:21 pm: |
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Just to clarify, what I meant by that technical term "sticking" was latching. Your shutter appears not to be latching on the wind stroke. Inside there should be a latch in the form of a pawl or other arrangement to put the shutter into the cocked state, with the main spring tensioned. Check for something with a pointed shape that should latch against another similar-shaped piece as the shutter is wound; that could be your problem here. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 129
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 06:30 pm: |
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Okay, if the rack is supposed to retract, then it is definitely something in the shutter itself.
I am looking at it right now actually to see what is causing the failure to lock.
If I engage self timer, the shutter does wait till the time is up to open. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 130
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 06:57 pm: |
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I wonder if this is the cause of the non-cocking of the shutter. In the photo shown below, the shutter is in non-cocked position. Notice the teeth (between 7 and 8'o clock position) on the cam on the left and the tooth on the lever under the black screw in the middle. At the end of winding stroke, are these teeth supposed to be locking together? I will post a photo of that end of the stroke too in the next post.
And the pin to the right of the blue wire is the one that is responsible for tripping the shutter when moved inwards. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 131
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 07:00 pm: |
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And here is the same shutter at the end of the wind stroke. Notice the teeth how they match? But they don't lock. If somebody has a working shutter, open (!),a confirmation would be wonderful.
The cam on the left has two teeth, one below the other separate by an angle. I wonder if both of these are supposed to engage the two tabs on the black headed screw to its right. |
Harryrag
Tinkerer
Username: Harryrag
Post Number: 194
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 02:34 am: |
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Sorry, no shutter open at present.
You mention the self-timer, have you ever removed it from the shutter? If wrongly put back it may lead to shutter failure.
With respect to your second photo, yes, from memory I think your idea is right, they are supposed to engage. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 132
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 08:07 am: |
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No, I did not take out the self timer. I did not disassemble the shutter itself. In fact, I separated the shutter from its base (by unscrewing the retaining ring, that keeps the rear element secure, from behind) only when this problem occurred.
The shaft in the photos that you see with a black slotted screw head, with a metal pin head showing in the middle, is the release shaft.
The cam on its left is on the winding shaft.
As the winding shaft is turned, the cam rotates counter clockwise (as we are seeing it in the photos here). The lock on the release shaft is under spring tension and it pushes against the winding shaft cam. I think as the cam travels to its end, the lock should slip into that slot, blocking the winding shaft to return. Pushing the pin on the release shaft (pin beside the blue wire) inwards should unlock the winding cam and let the shutter operate.
At the extreme end of the winding action, I see that the release shaft can turn a tiny bit more if given a chance. So it appears as though the winding shaft is not completing its travel.
What do the guru tinkerers say that I remove the cover plate of the speed governor mechanism (lies to the left of the winding shaft) and what would be blocking the winding shaft from going any further? |
Harryrag
Tinkerer
Username: Harryrag
Post Number: 195
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 11:36 am: |
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Considering your last question, why would you like to do that?
Without too much force, can the winding shaft be turned by hand to reach end position?
Before you try anything, just wait. I am opening up one of the S2s and be back again. |
Harryrag
Tinkerer
Username: Harryrag
Post Number: 196
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 11:47 am: |
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Have it open now, everything in your pictures looks ok. Can the winding shaft be manually pushed to the end of its travel, perhaps with a fingernail pushing against the pin on it? This works in my functioning camera, and the shutter can be released by ticking the release pin you mention in one of your posts. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 133
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 12:04 pm: |
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I have tried to nudge the winding shaft past its current final position, but can't. It looks as if that is the limit of its travel time.
I was talking about taking out the speed governor because the winding shaft appears to be pulling something from that side using a lever near its base. Perhaps it is the winding of the speed governor. I was hazarding a guess that perhaps it is there that something is keeping the shaft from turning all the way. Are there any signs I should see to rule that possibility out? |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 134
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 12:14 pm: |
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Here is the little thing under the winding cam (is it called the "b" lever?), shown by the arrow, that seems to be pulling a wire from the speed governor side. The wire is clearly visible as the winding occurs.
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Harryrag
Tinkerer
Username: Harryrag
Post Number: 197
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 12:33 pm: |
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On that end of the speed governor there is a catch that activates the flash contacts, and the closing of the blades, so it can take influence on the shutter.
The speed governor can be removed as a whole, do NOT try to disassemble this unit while still in the camera, reassembling the many tiny wheels inside of it including the star wheel is time consuming! If you take it out be careful not to lose the shims underneath.
READ THIS and the link FIRST: In his excellent shutter repair site Daniel Mitchell shows two somewhat different Copal shutters and mentions that blade closing spring that can make a shutter open when it is cocked, here is the link (liner notes of the 4th picture from above, Copal MVX): http://www.daniel.mitchell.name/cameras/index.php?page=copalmxv |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 135
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 01:13 pm: |
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I have seen that website and I know that it is not the same shutter as mine. The Auto S2 has Copal SVA shutter.
I tried to follow the website regarding the speed governor and started to take out the two screws shown in the photo below. But when I moved the cover plate, the various gears moved suddenly. I knew I had to align all the axles properly during re-assembly, and I admit at this kind of stuff I chickened out because I have never done this before. I don't even have a repair manual for the shutter. Clearly, I need more info on this.
After reading your post, I am examining the shutter again. I will pay attention to the flash contact that you mentioned.
I am also interested in knowing how to take out the speed governor as a module. |
Harryrag
Tinkerer
Username: Harryrag
Post Number: 198
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 01:27 pm: |
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DON'T remove the chrome steel screw! The screws holding the speed gevernor are both black, the second one sits on the far end of the module and shows signs of screwdriver use in your photo, it is close to the star wheel escapement. |
David_nebenzahl
Tinkerer
Username: David_nebenzahl
Post Number: 204
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 01:28 pm: |
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All the slow-speed clockwork mechanisms I've seen in shutters are secured by two screws; makes sense, because the governor is assembled as a unit, then inserted into the shutter. So find the two screws and remove them. Be careful not to remove the other screws that hold the mechanism itself together.
Sometimes one of the screws will hold something else, like the mainspring in the Seikosha MXL shutter. But it's a simple case of removing the two securing screws and then extracting the governor, which may take a little wiggling to free it of various levers, cams and such. |
Harryrag
Tinkerer
Username: Harryrag
Post Number: 199
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 01:39 pm: |
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Reading and STUDYING D. Mitchell's decriptions of how to (dis-)assemble shutters should leave almost no questions open. I am afraid I cannot offer any further help. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 136
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 01:43 pm: |
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No, I didn't remove that steel screw at the top. I had intended to, but when I unscrewed it, while keeping the top of the plate pressed in place, I noticed it was holding all the innards in place. And that is when I decided to put it back in place and wait for more information. 
Are the two screws holding the module the ones I show below?
Before I go ahead, any tricks to reseat the governor back? Do I wiggle somethings in a special way to allow go back into the right place? |
David_nebenzahl
Tinkerer
Username: David_nebenzahl
Post Number: 205
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 01:55 pm: |
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You know, I have to second Harryrag's emotion here. Studying Dan's excellent on-line guides, coupled with keen observation, should give you all the information you need to proceed here.
While I admire your spirit of inquisitiveness and experimentation, I must say I'm a little surprised at the level of hand-holding you're asking for here. Didn't you say earlier that you were an engineer of some kind? Surely you can figure out this comparatively simple mechanical device on your own, with the help of folks who have been there before like Dan Mitchell. Seeing that this is not the world's most valuable camera, I think you ought to go ahead on your own and undertake this repair, or just scrap it. After all, that's how a lot of us learned, at least those of us (like myself) who didn't go to camera repair school.
I'm just sayin' ... |
Harryrag
Tinkerer
Username: Harryrag
Post Number: 200
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 02:07 pm: |
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Yes, and both slotheads show signs of improper screwdriver usage, so the screws and the module have previously been removed.
I do not know of any tricks how to put it back, but it is not especially difficult, follow your intuition and avoid too much force. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 137
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 02:12 pm: |
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Harryrag, you have been a tremendous help already! I don't think I would diagnosed this problem as easily without your and others' excellent help.
Now all left to do is see what is causing the problem
Anybody thinks that rapid winding and releasing the shutter a couple of days ago could have precipitated this problem? |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 138
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 02:21 pm: |
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David, I am an electrical engg. My questions are usually regarding something that is not obvious to me. I think my main handicap here is the technical terms used for these kind of devices and lack of some basic knowledge regarding non-obvious stuff and pitfalls. I suppose mechanical engineers will be better able to understand the terms. I have gone over Dan's website and instructions. And I posted here only to verify my doubts. For example, I wasn't sure what that steel screw on the governor did. Only Harryrag advised me not to open it, I had tried to but intuitively thought I better not proceed ... my intuition served me well there
All these pictures and questions may seem hand holding, but I also realize they are going to be valuable to everyone looking for this information here in the future. The other effect all you people's comments is that I am getting more familiar with the terminology and with the bird's eye view of these kind of systems. I have also read the scanned articles by Rick Olsen on leaf shutters. Those helped a great deal.
No, the camera is not valuable. I can chuck it out the window without any significant financial loss. But that is not what this is about. I am interested in the knowledge about these these ... well, why else would I be here in this forum!?
I appreciate all you guys feedback, it is extremely wonderful. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 139
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 02:23 pm: |
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Harryrag, thanks for confirming which screws are holding the speed governor in place. I will try to take it out for trials. The fact that the macro photos shows improper screw driver use kind makes me worry that this may not be repairable at all, that it was defective and someone tried to fix it or messed it up.
BTW, making the shutter work using the self timer is one kludgy way Activate the timer to some delay, advance the lever and the timer starts, tripping the shutter at the end. I am tempted to try out a roll with that method |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 140
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 03:14 pm: |
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Problem appears to have been solved!
I took out the speed governor (thanks a ton, Harryrag!) and studies the mechanism carefully. I could make the shutter cock by turning the winding shaft with a pair of pliers past the release lever lock. To get the same effect, I reseated the base of the lens part of the base of the camera such that the rack gear would make the winding shaft turn past the critical point. I am going to reassemble the camera and see how it goes.
Further, since I have taken out the speed governor, I suppose I verify the speeds I am getting with my speed tester. |
David_nebenzahl
Tinkerer
Username: David_nebenzahl
Post Number: 206
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 05:39 pm: |
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Well, Mr. Phototaker, I really didn't mean to come down on you like a ton of bricks. It's just that any tinkerer worth his or her salt has to figure out some stuff for themselves.
Now I may have been as guilty as you in the past of seeking excessive hand-holding advice in this forum and others (and fully expect to be called to task if I ever do so in the future). There is a fine balance here, between asking questions and getting answers (which may be useful for others who come along later, as you pointed out), and asking for advice every time one hits a snag, which happens quite often in the normal course of practically any classic camera repair. One learns to take a break, drink a cup of coffee/tea/bourbon/tequila/whatever, scratch one's head and continue trying to solve the puzzle.
It makes me think of my poor little Ansco Memo, whose really simple Ilex shutter I just cannot get to work correctly. I've given up on it for the time being and consigned the camera to shelf queen status (it is cute and right purty). Someday, though, it'd be nice to hear the shutter click correctly at each of its three speeds, even if I never run a roll of film through it. I suspect I'm not alone in getting satisfaction out of fixing cameras sometimes for their own sake and not for any practical purpose, other than being able to wind the camera and trip the shutter and know that I made this former basket case work! |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 141
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 05:54 pm: |
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No problem David.
I was being cautious only because I have broken quite a bit of stuff I when knew much less and and excitement and adventure shutdown the thinking side of the brain. Happens a lot when one's a kid
I have learned that there are two schools of thought with some "extremist" teachers. One is that one should let learners make mistakes so that the learning is solidified, no need to describe anybody's experience here. The other is that one should learn from others mistakes and not repeat them, i.e. ask others and work with the knowledge of their experience. What is more confounding is that it is not uncommon to notice a particular teacher switching between these ideologies!
So it is common that, as you have shown, asking others for experience may appear hand holding. And if somebody were not to ask, people would complain "why didn't you ask before you did this, Einstein?" See the dilemma?
I have seen it all comes down the attitude and mood of a person when a question is asked.
I am of the opinion that a reasonable approach is somewhere in between. There are many tricks and gotchas while opening cameras, as I have found out by experience. It can and does appear to the experienced gurus that a novice's questioning hand holding. This is natural, and I completely understand that. Down the road, in hindsight I will probably do as you did but not mean to come down with a ton of bricks ;)
Anyway, back to the camera and trying to figure out how to put the lens back with little modification I made. I am not out of the woods yet. |
David_nebenzahl
Tinkerer
Username: David_nebenzahl
Post Number: 207
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 06:11 pm: |
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I think it's good we're having this little meta-discussion here (and what the heck, this thread is already about 35 messages long, so why not?).
Regarding those two methods of learning you described, for me the answer to the question of which approach to take is fairly simple, at least regarding camera repair. If one is working on a valuable camera where one is likely to break something and end up with an expensive collection of parts, then my choice would be to err on the side of caution and not go ahead and twist off that left-hand threaded piece, or break that little lever in the shutter. Which is why I probably wouldn't dive in to my A-1 (Canon) should it ever need repair, because it's just too dang complicated for me at this point. (It might be different if I got a non-working A-1 for cheap and wanted to take a crack at fixing it.) Same with my Minolta SRT-101, which I got for $5 and managed to get the mirror to return on. If there was anything much more wrong with it, I'd be leery of digging into it, even though I have the complete service manual, since it is such a complex piece of machinery.
I guess my point, if there is one, is that it's also important to know one's limitation. (Note to self.) |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 142
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 06:29 pm: |
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Yes, that makes sense. It all depends on the situation and the objective at hand. That is why I am taking a chance with this little modification to the winding mechanism, who knows what adverse effects it will have no the mechanism.
Anyhow, I am going through a series of shutter releases. Not sure how it will end. Ratchet system is still not working.
I also have to keep in mind that the shutter appears to have been opened to its innards before, as Harryrag pointed out regarding the speed governor. So maybe the system is broken in some subtle ways that I don't see. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 143
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 06:50 pm: |
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Well, let me close this thread. There appears to be something wrong with the shutter such that the winding shaft is not completing its turn. I can make it turn the whole way by using force (pliers) or by cranking it to an extreme end using the advance lever (by setting the winding gear to make turn more), but that doesn't sound right.
With the clockwork with which the machine functions, this extreme force is appears to be quite out of place. I suspect I should be able to cock the shutter manually by turning the cocking shaft, but it doesn't happen, a set of pliers is needed.
Thanks to everyone for all their help, it is much appreciated. Especially Harryrag's, without whose help and a critical instruction I would never have known how to remove the speed governor. You rule! |
