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Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 78
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 09:53 am: | 
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Just wondering if any of the experienced people have had to replace seals and foam in a camera twice (for seals going bad reasons).
I have had to replace seals of a camera from around 1975. So that gives a figure of around 20~25 years, with the foam used at time.
I wonder how long would the new foam last. I did put wool yarn in place of back door seals though. So I assume that will last longer than the foam I used for the mirror damper. |
David_nebenzahl
Tinkerer
Username: David_nebenzahl
Post Number: 183
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 12:04 pm: |
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Not experienced here, unfortunately, and not wanting to hijack this thread, but I'm curious about the use of yarn. I found this material used as a light seal in a camera I recently rebuilt (Braun Super Paxette). Seemed like good material for the purpose, but my problem was getting it to stay in place. I ended up using super glue (cyanoacrylate) which is not my favorite adhesive and made a pretty big mess. How does one glue this stuff down?
I would also like to know how effective yarn is compared to the more often used foam. At least with yarn one knows it's not going to turn into a gooey mess a couple of decades later. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 79
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 01:27 pm: |
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I put yarn on the door seals of my FTb. I used a synthetic glues as well. But I put glue only at a few places along the length of the wool yarn seal. Two spots were at the ends, and then two more, all equally spaced.
It was the first time that I ever did this and in glues the yarn in such sparse way. My main motivation was that the yarn should be easy to remove if it did not turn out to be a good idea.
But after a couple rolls and several dozens of openings and closings of the back door (during all the testing of shutter speeds, etc.), the yarn appears to be holding out pretty well. No light leaks. No unsticking of the yarn and nor does the door pull it out.
So it appears that not only is wool yarn good for sealing (light and dust), but the sparse gluing of it has also turned out to be working quite satisfactory so far. (sorry for this weird sentence structure) |
Rlc
Tinkerer
Username: Rlc
Post Number: 97
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 06:11 pm: |
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I have had excellent and long lasting results using seals from Jon Goodman. His eBay user name is Interslice. Each kit is custom designed and comes with instructions and tools for any specific camera. He is also a contributer to this forum.
Dick. |
David_nebenzahl
Tinkerer
Username: David_nebenzahl
Post Number: 184
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 06:22 pm: |
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Yes, most of us know all about his stuff. (I swear, there's a fine line between helpful mentions of a product and outright commercial promotion, which is annoying.)
But we're talking about using materials other than synthetic foam, which is prone to deterioration after long periods. |
Rlc
Tinkerer
Username: Rlc
Post Number: 98
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 06:54 pm: |
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David; Please accept my apologies if I have offended you.
For the record, I have no connection, commercial or otherwise with Jon Goodman.
The original question was; "I wonder how long would the new foam last."
I was simply addressing that issue. |
David_nebenzahl
Tinkerer
Username: David_nebenzahl
Post Number: 185
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 07:15 pm: |
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Well, the question the thread-started posed, which was how long foam would last, still remains. We all know about Mr. Goodman's seal kits, which are certainly useful. What we still don't know is how long the stuff lasts. I'd like to know myself. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 80
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 08:32 pm: |
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Regarding the mirror foam, I have for now replaced the deteriorated one with foam commonly available from arts & crafts store. However, since I am not sure about the age of any foam, I have been playing around with an idea of replacing that.
I am thinking of replacing the mirror damper foam in my FTb with felt or Velour (or Veleur?). The mirror damper needs to be 2~3mm thick and around 2mm deep and as long as the forward edge of the mirror, let us call that W. So, cut a strip of velvet around 4mm x W. Turn it to make loop W wide and 2mm thick. The loop's thickness should be what is required as a thickness of the foam. The loop can be secured by sewing the edges where they meet or using glue. Next, glue that pipe of velvet, which is W wide, in place of the mirror damper foam.
Now, if the thickness is not sufficient, once can 'fill' the pipe using a W wide strip of felt. Basically, wrap a W x 1.5~2mm strip of felt with velvet and this 'pipe' gives you your mirror damper foam.
All these materials are easily available from any arts and crafts store. Very economical.
And besides, the kits that so many people keep mentioning, repair only one single camera for $10. In the same cost using wool yarn, felt and velvet (or even foam), several dozens of cameras can be replaced. But the most important point, however, is that the fabrics have the other extremely beneficial property that they do not degrade with time as foam does!
Now, if only I can get some idea how long is the usual foam expected to last, we can do a more specific comparison regarding the ages. |
Mikel
Tinkerer
Username: Mikel
Post Number: 209
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 09:05 pm: |
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"How long do new seals and foam last?"
Depends entirely on the type of foam.
OEM open cell replacement foam will last as long as the original. Newer materials such as supplied by Jon Goodman will last far longer.
The article here on the forum about light seal replacement comes from Jon who has been a long time contributor here and elsewhere in camera repair and restoration. It's worth reading. Those who are annoyed by his mention or presence here should acclimate themselves or make other plans.
The assertion that his $10 kit will only do one camera is ridiculous. The first kit I bought from him did five cameras and there was material left over.
I always try to use a material similar to what the manufacturer designed the camera to use. I'll use cotton mercerized yarn in a 1938 Contax II and a modern replacement foam for something like a Yashica FR or Canon FT. But that is only a personal preference. Use whatever you want. After all, it's your camera. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 81
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 09:37 pm: |
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Perhaps I am mistaken, but my interpretation of Jon's ads on ebay is that it is only for one single camera. I welcome any corrections, however. Please note that I came to know about these ads here only relatively recently. I have never used the product and, obviously, cannot say one way or the other regarding its quality.
Regarding the material a camera is designed for, I am not sure I understand your point(but then, I am not an expert). A change of material, AFAIK, can be due to various factors, one of which is cost. Perhaps foams began to be used because it is more cost effective and time efficient to do so, while sacrificing life of the material used (fact: foams deteriorate). In other words, I am trying to understand if there can be any harm in using yarn, for example, in place of foam used for door seals by Canon in FT series cameras.
Now, if I am repairing my own camera, and since I can use whatever material I want, this question becomes more important. Should I use a foam from a foam kit with uncertain life (a few years in dry climate, only some months in hot and humid? who knows?), or wool yarn which does not appear to show any ill effects in practice and has been reported to be used even in movie cameras? If it is functionally good for movie cameras (quite a critical application), I want some of that too! 
It is something like metal versus plastic gears. Manufacturers switched to lot of plastic gears in the 70's and onwards. So are plastic gears better for us? For the manufacturers, sure. For us, surely not as far as the age and robustness is concerned.
I have started an experiment with my FTb with wool yarn. I plan to extend it to mirror foam as well. So far it is going extremely well. But I thought to throw this out in the open for discussion and try to see how the age of typical foam compares with the performance of fabrics I mentioned. |
Mndean
Tinkerer
Username: Mndean
Post Number: 192
Registered: 08-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 10:01 pm: |
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I've used Jon's kit and it has done 3 cameras so far, and I have plenty of material left. Some cameras can't use yarn, as the light baffles are sometimes much wider than even the widest yarn (try doing a Canon Demi with yarn). As for cine cameras, the professional ones are serviced frequently, and it would be better to have something that can be changed in/out without a great deal of effort, so yarn or felt would be a better choice. OEM foam was intended as a maintenance-free product, and it worked until it breaks down, which seems to take 20+ years, if my cameras are anything to go by. I hope Jon can stop by and answer some of this, it seems that there's a lot of misinformation floating about. |
David_nebenzahl
Tinkerer
Username: David_nebenzahl
Post Number: 186
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 10:34 pm: |
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Well, perhaps not so much misinformation as missing information.
Please don't take my annoyance with the frequency of the references to his light-seal kits as knocking Mr. Goodman. People seem to really like his products, so he must be doing something right.
It would be useful to know how long the foam in his kits can be expected to last compared to, say, the OEM material used. This discussion seems very much related to a parallel thread here elsewhere about the longevity and preservation of plastic materials in general. This is a topic that seems to be "coming of age" as the plastics so widely used in the mid-20th century are now starting to deteriorate in collectible items like our cameras. It seems that plastic-ology is an imperfect science at best, as much is simply not known about the causes of breakdown of these materials, and about the interactions between different kinds of plastics and other materials.
Anyhow, I guess if one can expect to get 20 years or so out of a foam replacement, one shouldn't have much cause for complaint.
I eagerly await additional enlightenment on the subject. |
Harryrag
Tinkerer
Username: Harryrag
Post Number: 176
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2010 - 08:18 am: |
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Maybe in a few years time the forum will have to be redubbed The Plastic Camera Restoration Forum, in the meantime my favourite material also for interior light baffles will continue to be black yarn, cotton strings and black felt in various thicknesses. Cheapest is best here.
I am certainly not repeating the manufacturers' mistakes and use any sort of foam (soon-to-be goo) again, even it someone says it will outlive me, which, considering the average age of the majority of posters here, is not too difficult, so hey, why worry?
With a bit of care the cut-to-measure bits are wetted with a thin string of contact glue and after some minutes of surface drying they can be placed with toothpicks and tweezers where they belong, the glue is then still sticky enough to perform its job and there is no smearing about of glue. I have never had any light leaks or baffles falling out. |
David_nebenzahl
Tinkerer
Username: David_nebenzahl
Post Number: 187
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2010 - 11:35 am: |
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Your sentiments pretty much jibe with mine, especially my abiding suspicion of foamed plastics. So I think I will go that route--string, yarn, etc.--the next time I re-seal one of my cameras, even if it's a new-ish 35mm SLR. The conventional wisdom here (that foam is the only way to go) may not be optimal.
I was wondering what the best adhesive would be to use with yarn, and suspected that contact cement might be the right stuff, so that confirmation is appreciated as well. |
Chiccolini
Tinkerer
Username: Chiccolini
Post Number: 82
Registered: 06-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2010 - 11:49 am: |
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In all this talk of mirror foam no one has brought into the discussion the reason why mirrors have foam and that is to absorb the shock or vibration of the mirror's upward swing. Now, in replacing foam, which foam does the best job for this? Closed cell, open cell, etc.? A lot of new chemistry has happened since our old '70s cameras and many new foams have come to market. |
David_nebenzahl
Tinkerer
Username: David_nebenzahl
Post Number: 189
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2010 - 12:03 pm: |
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Good question. And is foam really the right stuff here? What about something like EPDM instead? (or perhaps EPDM foam?) |
Harryrag
Tinkerer
Username: Harryrag
Post Number: 177
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 25, 2010 - 02:37 pm: |
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I have tested several sorts of cloth-like materials, including that velvet stuff of old 35mm film canisters and the lining of lens containers, instead of foam along mirror boxes, mirror bumpers and prisms seats of Minolta and Petri SLRs when restoring them and I am just pleased with the results. The talkative warning of some sellers of foam on evil bay that only their very special exclusive foam material is suitable here and other stuff will screw up the camera has turned out to be biased purposeful misinformation. |
Philacamera
Tinkerer
Username: Philacamera
Post Number: 8
Registered: 01-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 26, 2010 - 02:17 pm: |
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Neoprene or any kind of urethane "rubber" begans to decompose (via re-liquification) after about 20 years, turning into the gummy mess any vintage camera fan is familiar with. This is the case in light seals or mold making, and as with anything, the exact timetable has a lot to do with the storage conditions. Now, light seals also often have the compression factor which may shorten that life expectancy a good deal, but 20 years should be considered a "maximum life span in captivity" estimate. I used to sell these foams & rubbers in liquid form at an art supply store, so this question came up often, albeit in a different context. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 90
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 27, 2010 - 07:29 am: |
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Alright, so have a number now and it is reasonably long. So far so good.
However, I have many online reports of people's foam going bad much sooner depending on climatic conditions. Usually it has to do with higher humidity and temperature.
In any case, of all the seals and foams, the one used for mirror damper appears to be the most delicate one needing most patience and work to remove. Moreover, its deterioration also puts the focusing screen in direct danger of getting dirty and that, we all know, can be a most bothersome thing to put right.
So, I suppose I am looking for an alternative that we could replace the mirror damper foam with something that degrades elegantly. If it has longer life, all the better.
If fabric can be made to replace the foam with satisfactory performance, the mess of degraded foam can be avoided altogether. Harryrag has reported that such an option appears to work very well. |
Harryrag
Tinkerer
Username: Harryrag
Post Number: 178
Registered: 05-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 27, 2010 - 08:07 am: |
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... with Minolta SR-Ts and vintage Petris.
I have no idea whether e.g. Canons can be mistreated like described.
In my SLRs however the damping effect of the foam is neglectable, the Minoltas have a spring that serves as a shock absorber and the foam or fabric strip simply reduces the noise of the mirror stroke, without it metal would bang against metal. For some time I used a 101 with a bare mirror bumber plate just to prove it did not harm the camera in any way, but the ones being photographed did not much like the noise.
Any sort of thin velvet textile material can be used. Forget about foam, even the originally sealed mirror strips I ordered not long before Minolta's shutdown have turned gooey after not even a decade, of course I do not know how long they had been stored on the service's stockpile. |
Aphototaker
Tinkerer
Username: Aphototaker
Post Number: 91
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 27, 2010 - 11:45 am: |
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hmm ... interesting, that spring shock absorber in Minoltas.
Regarding Canons, at least the EOS 1N, EOS 5e, EOS 50e, AE-1 Program, FT QL and FTb do not appear to have any spring. Just a strip of foam to be slapped by the mirror.
I have noticed that the mirror slap is sort of subdued in my FTb than in AE-1 Program. In the latter, it is more metallic. I tried to observe if it is hitting the metal someplace, but couldn't see any problem. Anybody else have experience with both these cameras?
The only difference is that in FTb I put a strip of craft foam in place of the mirror damper (it had deteriorated and turned goey) and do not know how it sounded before I did the replacement. Due to my lack of experience, I am not ready to conclude that the crafts foam reduced the noise. More like the mechanism in FTb is inherently quieter than in AE-1P. Anybody know more? |
Markus
Tinkerer
Username: Markus
Post Number: 135
Registered: 08-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2010 - 12:51 pm: |
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In an earlier post here in this thread Mikel said that Jon Goodman's light seal kit contains enough material for several cameras. This seems no longer to be the case. I ordered one of his kits recently (for a C220) and it had just enough material for one camera. Other kits I ordered maybe a year ago contained more material.
I just wanted to clarify. I like the service that Jon provides. His lightseal howto guides are excellent and he makes them available for free on this site. That said, there are cheaper sources for the foam (e.g. http://micro-tools.com, http://aki-asahi.com/store/) but you mostly get to cut them to size yourself, which is a pain in the neck if you ask me. |
Adrian
Tinkerer
Username: Adrian
Post Number: 294
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2010 - 02:48 pm: |
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Yes, unfortunately Jon discovered that people were buying his kits and selling them on at a considerable mark-up (including one divot who tried it here...). Understandably he wasn't impressed, and now does single kits for specific cameras to try to stop the pirates. |
Mndean
Tinkerer
Username: Mndean
Post Number: 206
Registered: 08-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2010 - 10:12 pm: |
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Is the cost the same as it was before? If so, he's not going to keep customers that way. I was ready to buy another kit (have two cameras to do), but if I have to buy two kits each at the same price as the one I did three cameras before, it won't exactly be as easy a choice as it used to be. |
Fiftyfifty
Tinkerer
Username: Fiftyfifty
Post Number: 48
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 01:56 am: |
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I have also have tried to obtain a pack from Jon.Does anyone know where we can get the 1.8mm strips the Jon used to supply?
If the seals are only available in single kits, then the cost may prevent some cameras being brought back into use, a lot of cheaper cameras may be scraped. |
Gez
Tinkerer
Username: Gez
Post Number: 188
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 03:43 am: |
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A sporting goods store may be the best place to look for the material used for door seal strips, as it appears very similar to tennis racket hand grip covering?? |
Glenn
Tinkerer
Username: Glenn
Post Number: 755
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 08:52 am: |
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As far as I am concerned Aki-Asahi in the only viable alternative to Jon's products. Having said that I cannot see Jon Goodman buggering up his loyal customer base just because there are a lot of greedy, devious bastards out there - from my limited contact with him he does not come across as a money grabbing individual. I suggest that previous customers first contact him before you write his products off as now being too expensive. I have not checked his prices recently; however, this thread may start to do the man an injustice. |
Mndean
Tinkerer
Username: Mndean
Post Number: 207
Registered: 08-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 03:06 pm: |
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If you've read this thread, there have been aspersions cast his product. Where were you then? I don't mind paying more if it's costing him more, but all it takes is one mistake and if there's only just enough foam in a kit to do one camera and no extra pieces, then I'm SOL if I mess up even one piece. Jon never struck me as greedy, but he may want to stop any unauthorized sale of his product. The problem is that it costs almost as much (I looked) to buy a kit for one camera now as it did to buy the kit I did three cameras with about two years ago. I don't need a precut kit, I'm quite handy with an X-acto. Also he has a limited number of cameras he sells kits for, some of mine aren't on his list. If he wants to limit his customer base, that's his business. |
Georgeboosh
Tinkerer
Username: Georgeboosh
Post Number: 9
Registered: 04-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 05:22 am: |
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In my experience, if you get in touch with Jon he can be easily persuaded to sell you one of the kits that has enough material to deal with 6 cameras at the same price that they were when he sold them via ebay. He doesn't sell them on ebay anymore. There's a few negative vibes on this thread. Probably unnecessary. Regarding how long the foam lasts--I don't know. Yarn and black felt also do a good job as light seal material, and is economical if you have a lot of cameras to do. |
Mndean
Tinkerer
Username: Mndean
Post Number: 208
Registered: 08-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 08:46 am: |
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I certainly hope that's so, and I don't mind paying more for it if I can do more than a couple of cameras. His original kit was such a boon to us with old cameras, especially obscure ones, that I'd hate to see it go away. The yarn is okay for older cameras that use it, but I'd rather not use it due to shedding bits of thread that could end up on the film. |
Djamorpheus
Tinkerer
Username: Djamorpheus
Post Number: 32
Registered: 10-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2010 - 07:24 pm: |
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I wonder if its possible to get a bulk purchase of light seal foam from somewhere, i bought a kit recently of different sized foams for 11 pounds, pricey for what you get. Does anyone know where its possible to buy light seal material? (UK or EU) |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 125
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2010 - 11:53 am: |
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Jon makes precut kits for specific cameras and those DO only do one camera. However, he also used to make kits for general purpose use (for repairmen) and those had enough in them for a good many cameras. I've heard from different people both that he is and is not still making those general purpose kits on request. I bought a big one last time and still have some left though.
As for how long seals will last, it depends almost entirely on the materials. OEM type foam will last as long as the origial did (properly speaking it should probably should be replaced after 5 years, although it may last 10). The stuff in Jon's kits lasts FAR longer, since it is an entirely different material that does not really ever break down in the same way the OEM foam does. Eventually it will probably break down due to fatigue, but that will likely take decades. |
Shikyo
Tinkerer
Username: Shikyo
Post Number: 1
Registered: 05-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 12:59 am: |
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http://www.cam-spares.com/page3.htm
This is an English shop, though they don't have many choices in thickness.
Today I also tried to get a general kit from Jon, however, I was told that he stopped selling general kits one year ago. It is really too bad since I liked his foam materials for door seals very much. I don't know anywhere selling those. |
Gyurmi
Tinkerer
Username: Gyurmi
Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2010 - 08:59 am: |
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Re mirror dampening: I just took apart a Cannonflex from the early 1960's. The brakes are put on (so to speak) the upswinging mirror by a set of cog-wheels, which are on the other side of the mirror housing. The foam plays no or very little role in the dampening. I'd say a similar solution would have been used in many other cameras. In the more modern ones they started to install devices to balance the mirror, which resulted in an even smoother 'landing'. So, I think using some fabric, instead of foam, would be quite alright as the foam is not really there to stop the mirror. In conclusion... Q: How long does foam last? A: N/A. (Use fabric instead, it lasts forever.) |
Glenn
Tinkerer
Username: Glenn
Post Number: 781
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2010 - 06:31 pm: |
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The foam is definitely there to to stop the mirror AND silence the contact of the mirror with the screen frame. On Canon SLRs the mechanical damper does not bring the mirror to a stop before it hits the screen frame, all it does is reduce the inertia of the mirror and prevent mirror slap/bounce.
If anybody has a scrap A Series you can experiment by removing the Delrin gears in the damper gear chain, operating the camera with an undamped mirror is very revealing. It also reveals why the foam strip is there for the mirror to 'land' on! |
