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Jeffk
Tinkerer
Username: Jeffk
Post Number: 29
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2011 - 10:25 pm: | 
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I have a fairly nice Super Ikonta 531 that was my grandfather's, and I'm curious how much effort it would take to get it working reasonably well again. The main issue is that the shutter sticks at all but the fastest speed - the lens also has some apparent fungus somewhere that I can possibly clean if I can get access to it. Does anyone have experience with this camera, and/or know where I could get my hands on a repair manual? I certainly don't want to tear it all apart, mostly just get the shutter functioning again and attempt to clean the lens elements. |
Mr_flibble
Tinkerer
Username: Mr_flibble
Post Number: 28
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2011 - 11:56 pm: |
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For the shutter, first and foremost I think exercise might help out there. Cock and fire it a all speeds a few times.
If the fungus on the outerside of the element groups. I believe the front lens element simply unscrews from the shutter
I'll take a look at mine when I get home later today.
Cheers,
Rick |
Jeffk
Tinkerer
Username: Jeffk
Post Number: 30
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2011 - 08:37 am: |
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Thanks Rick, I've fired it hundreds of times and it still sticks - has been sticking for at least 35 years, since it was "handed down" to me, and probably much longer than that. Shutter is Compur-Rapid, other features suggest it's early post-war so it's been around a while. |
Mr_flibble
Tinkerer
Username: Mr_flibble
Post Number: 29
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2011 - 10:26 am: |
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Alright, it sounds like you're dealing with dried grease/dirt.
At that stage I would let a small drop of Naphtha/Zippo fuel/Ronsonol/White Gas/Washing Benzine soak into the shutter mechanism along the cocking lever and maybe along the shutter speed ring.
And then exercise it throug all speeds again.
Don't use too much if you are going to try this yourself!
But if you do so accidently let the camera air out for 15 minutes.
Hmmm Okay, I was wrong concerning the front lens unit just unscrewing.
Hans Kerensky here on the board might be able to tell you more. |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 201
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2011 - 01:08 pm: |
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Jeffk,
It doesn't matter what kind of camera it is, what matters is what kind of shutter it is. so what kind of shutter is it? You'll find instructions for cleaning several types of shutters here: http://pheugo.com/cameras/index.php
However, if you have not done this before and don't want to ruin several cameras learning how to clean a shutter (yeah, that's how you learn), you probably ought to stop with taking the shutter's faceplate off and removing the lenses. At that point, you will have access to the gears and both sides of the shutter blades and aperture diaphragm. The way I am going to tell you to do this is not as good as taking the whole thing apart and cleaning it, but it works and, if you are careful, it isn't too risky.
You can flush out the gears with naptha and work it in with a small artist's brush. Be careful not to dislodge any springs. While it is still wet, put the cam (a slotted disk) back on and hold it down while you trip the shutter a few times, then flush it out again. Do this on the slowest shutter speed, on a middle shutter speed and on the fastest shutter speed. That will probably free everything up from the gunk that was in the gears, but that's not all there is to it and the shutter will probably still be sticking.
Next you use alternating wet and dry cotton swabs to clean both sides of the shutter blades and the aperture diaphragm. You might have to clean the shutter blades and aperture blades quite a few times to get all the oil that will leach onto them during the cleaning process. You use a sopping wet Q-tip to wipe down one side of the shutter blades, trip the shutter a couple of times, and then use the dry end of the swab to mop it up. Repeat about 50 times -- maybe more. You're done when the blades look clean and don't stick when the shutter has dried out for several hours.
When done, use a VERY small amount of oil to lube the gears and do not put ANY oil on the shutter blades. The shutter blades are designed to run dry; any oil on them will make them stick together and they won't work at all. Don't forget to flush out BOTH gear pallets (the small one is for the self-timer and the larger one is for the shutter speeds). When oiling the shutter use only a tiny amount of oil (less than a drop total) and put it only on pivot points and places where metal parts rub against each other. Once again, this does NOT include shutter blades! Best way to do this is to get a needle and lift tiny droplets of oil with the point.
Finally, you let it dry out for 12 hours or so, check one more time to make sure it is still not sticking and you can put the cam and faceplate back on. |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 202
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2011 - 01:20 pm: |
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Oh yeah. Forgot to mention it but the lenses just unscrew. You'll need a lens wrench or reasonable facsimile thereof to get the center element and the rear element out. Some people sharpen the ends of a pair of needle-nosed pliers, but that is much riskier than using a proper wrench and might scratch the lenses.
Once again, you don't tell up what kind of lens it is. Three element lenses, like the Novar are easy, because all three elements just unscrew individually. However, some four element lenses have two elements glued or even press-fitted together and if the fungus is between these two elements, you can't get at it. |
Hanskerensky
Tinkerer
Username: Hanskerensky
Post Number: 138
Registered: 05-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2011 - 03:06 pm: |
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Jeff, the front/shutter part of a 531 looks much the same as that of a later clone, the Russian KMZ Moskva.
A very good walkthrough for accessing the shutter you can see here :
http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/Moskva5.html
However, when you don't have any experience with camerarepair i would advise you to first do some exercises on other cameras that are not so much worth a a good looking Zeiss Super Ikonta or let it be done by somebody with enough practice.
The best way to clean a leaf shutter is to take it from the camera, remove all lens elements and open it up, then take most components out and clean them one by one. There are plenty of pitfalls on that way and during re-assembly when it's necessary to lubricate some parts (if it's a Compur).
If you want to do what Rick wrote in an eralier comment then please carefully read his posting. Only use a very very small amount of Lighterfluid !
Lighterfluid flows very easily, dissolves old lubricants but it also leaves the residue behind on the places were it dries. So when you pour some lighterfluid inside and it happens to reach the optics you are in trouble and still have to take everything apart. |
Jeffk
Tinkerer
Username: Jeffk
Post Number: 31
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2011 - 10:43 pm: |
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Excellent tips, thanks! The front of the Moskva looks basically the same as my Super Ikonta, but the walkthrough suggests this may be more than I want to tackle, simply because getting it to work well is not worth risking damaging it. I'll try the little bit of lighter fluid trick first and see if this helps, then evaluate whether or not I want to tear into it. Lens is a Tessar, looks to be coated but the discoloration may be in the coating and not fungus, it's hard to tell - it does not smell moldy, and it's had a pretty pampered existence in upstairs closets and dry climates. |
Mr_flibble
Tinkerer
Username: Mr_flibble
Post Number: 30
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2011 - 12:26 am: |
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Hans, I have never noticed Zippo fuel or Washing Benzine leaving behind a residue (yet). Though I can understand that the anti-rust additives in some Naphtha products like Coleman Fuel might do that.
Only when cleaning metal and glass surfaces with alcohol have I had that waxy build-up from when it reacts with deposites of skin oils and fingerprints.
But yes I agree, flushing with naphtha might cause dissolved grease to migrate to places you do not want it to go, like shutter blades, aperture blades and lens surfaces.
If the 'fungus' it's just discoloration of the coating, then I wouldn't bother doing anything about it.
If it really is fungus, exposing the lens to good sunlight over a period of a few days will kill the fungus, but you would still need to clean it off the lens surfaces. Oh, and don't store the camera in its leather case.
Good luck,
Rick |
Hanskerensky
Tinkerer
Username: Hanskerensky
Post Number: 139
Registered: 05-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2011 - 04:38 am: |
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Rick,
The residue i mean are the old lubricants which the lighterfluid dissolves. When it then flows further into the shutter and dries it will leave behind the remnants of these old lubricants. I saw this happening before and it can leave nasty streaks on optics.
Besides fungus one of the main problems with old Tessars is separation of the rear lens group. These are 2 elements kitted together with Canadian Balsam which might deteriorate over time and normally this is first visible as a circular discoloration at the edge of that rear lens group. People could think that this is fungus. |
Jeffk
Tinkerer
Username: Jeffk
Post Number: 32
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2011 - 08:42 am: |
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Hans, interesting, circular discoloration is exactly what I see. I'm definitely not motivated to try to separate cemented elements in this camera. |
Finnegan
Tinkerer
Username: Finnegan
Post Number: 100
Registered: 09-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2011 - 09:39 am: |
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Now that all you guys are assembled, throw me some pointers on unfreezing the focusing on a pre-war Model C (f3.8 Tessar) please. |
Br1078lum
Tinkerer
Username: Br1078lum
Post Number: 178
Registered: 11-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2011 - 12:04 pm: |
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Ronsonal soak, and heat it with a hair dryer after the Ronsonal evaporates.
PF |
Br1078lum
Tinkerer
Username: Br1078lum
Post Number: 179
Registered: 11-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2011 - 12:13 pm: |
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Jeff, Ive taken a couple of these apart, and it's not really all that hard to do. I wouldn't mess with the seperation on the rear group, but the rest is pretty much straightforward. Making sure you mark or make note of where the front element seperates from the body will make it easier to get the focus back when reassembling the lens. Just make sure you take your time, and take notes and pictures as you go, to refer to when putting it all back together. If I can do it, you can too.
And there is plenty of help here if you get stuck or lost.
PF |
Hanskerensky
Tinkerer
Username: Hanskerensky
Post Number: 140
Registered: 05-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2011 - 12:20 pm: |
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Jeff, if it's really a rear lens elements separation there is not much that you can do about that. There are some workshops which can fix such a problem by kitting the elements together with UV-drying optical glue but i'm afraid that could have a costly pricetag.
Maybe first shoot a testfilm to see if it's noticable at all on the images. |
Jeffk
Tinkerer
Username: Jeffk
Post Number: 33
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2011 - 08:40 pm: |
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I'll give the lighter fluid a try over the weekend and report back on it. I could go through the disassembly and cleaning, but in my experience with other similar sorts of things those jobs always snowball, like the author of the Moskva repair found when he unwittingly let the flip-up rangefinder prisms fall out and had to figure out how to realign them. ;-) Big, off-into-the-deep-end committment for grand-dad's camera that I'd hate to screw up completely. The camera does function, I've run several rolls of film through it, but I haven't looked closely at the negatives. |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 205
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2011 - 11:54 am: |
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Saying that lighter fluid leaves a residue after cleaning is like saying that you washed the dishes but then the old food and soap just dried on them. YOU HAVE TO RINSE! You use fresh lighter fluid to do this. |
Jeffk
Tinkerer
Username: Jeffk
Post Number: 34
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2011 - 08:46 pm: |
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Zippo worked well! I poured a very small amount in the groove that the shutter cocking lever moves along, worked the shutter many times, then repeated the process. Shutter now seems to fire reliably at all speeds, I don't know how accurate it is but it is reproducible. I think that's goal accomplished, sentimental value and the fact that it's a good working survivor means I don't want to tear any farther into it. Thanks for the tips!
 |
Jeffk
Tinkerer
Username: Jeffk
Post Number: 35
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2011 - 11:10 pm: |
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BTW, I'd forgotten just how bad that albada finder is! Really a dumb idea except for use in bright sunlight, it's like looking through dark sunglasses. I'd also forgotten how intricate and complex this camera is - quite an amazing piece of engineering, from the days of slide rules and hand tooling and blueprints. |
Jeffk
Tinkerer
Username: Jeffk
Post Number: 36
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2011 - 12:38 am: |
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Damn, posted too soon. After letting it sit for a few hours, I see that the shutter is sticking again... No better, no worse - seems that the "fix" was working the shutter dozens of times, and not so much the lighter fluid. So now it's, tear into it or just let it be. |
Hanskerensky
Tinkerer
Username: Hanskerensky
Post Number: 141
Registered: 05-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2011 - 01:56 am: |
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Jeff, that is quite common when using lighter fluid. When it is still liquid somewhere you might be able to operate the shutter but when it dried completly the old situation returns. As said, i always take the shutter apart and then clean and re-lubricate (when a Compur).
How you go further depends on the time and money you want to spent on it. If you want to do this yourself then remember that you first have to build up some skills by taking apart a shutter from a "throw away" camera before you start on your beautifull Super Ikonta. |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 207
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2011 - 08:42 am: |
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JeffK,
Read the instructions I posted. You may have to apply lighter fluid and mop it up 50 times before it works without sticking. I wasn't kidding. While oil is on the shutter blades, it isn't going to matter how many times you trip the shutters. They will still be just as dirty on the 1000th activation as they were on the first. |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 208
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2011 - 08:56 am: |
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Oh, and you got some bad advice. If you use lighter fluid, use LOTS. The reason it sticks is not that it leaves a residue (it doesn't), it is that the lighter fluid dissolves the old crud and then it redeposits as it dries. You have to use enough that it DISPLACES the dirty lighter fluid.
Look, if you squirt a teaspoon of water on a dirty dish and scrub it with a brush, it will loosen the dirty food, but if you just let it sit then, the old food is just going to stick again after the water dries up. You have to rinse the dish to get it clean. Well, just common sense shoud tell you that if all you do is squirt a few drops of lighter fluid in there, your shutter is going to stick again as soon as it dries up -- UNLESS YOU DO SOMETHING TO GET THE DIRTY LIGHTER FLUID OUT. You can "mop" it up with dry cotton swabs to do that, you can flush the dirty stuff out with LOTS of clean lighter fluid, all storts of things, but you can't expect to dissolve a bunch of crud and let it sit in it and somehow come out clean -- because you have not removed the dirt. |
Jeffk
Tinkerer
Username: Jeffk
Post Number: 37
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2011 - 09:13 am: |
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I am nowhere close to having the shutter apart and cleaning oil off the shutter blades, as I said I put a small amount of lighter fluid into the mechanism to see if it helped - apparently it didn't, so I have to decide if I want to tear into it to get to the point where your helpful instructions can do me good. Camera looks exactly as pictured, and getting at the shutter mechanism, never mind the blades, seems to me to be a dodgy proposition unless perhaps I can find a bad throw-away example of something similar with the same shutter to practice on. |
Jeffk
Tinkerer
Username: Jeffk
Post Number: 38
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2011 - 09:32 am: |
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BTW, there does appear to be some kind of residue on the shutter blades, it's been there for as long as I can remember. If that is the root cause of the sticking issue, then obviously the only fix is to tear into it. I'll look around for a practice camera to attempt first. |
Hanskerensky
Tinkerer
Username: Hanskerensky
Post Number: 142
Registered: 05-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2011 - 11:03 am: |
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That's the best way to go Jeff, do some practice first on a cheap camera so you'll feel more comfortable when you tackle the real thing !
IMO your Super Ikonta is too precious a camera for a first attempt in camera service.
Your Super Ikonta has also some gearing from the frontlens ring to the external rangefinder which might be lubricated. Pouring lighterfluid inside (like suggested by somebody else here) could affect that lubrication too. And also it would be a very good idea if the optics are out of the way. As said before and confirmed by professional service men the best way to clean such a leaf shutter is to take it apart. I always do. Many times you find surprises inside like hair, metal chipings, paint flakes and other foreign particles. |
Mr_flibble
Tinkerer
Username: Mr_flibble
Post Number: 31
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2011 - 01:38 am: |
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Sorry to hear the few drops of lighter fluid didn't work for very long, Jeff. It's the least invasive method I know and it has worked for me on several cameras before.
But, I have also seen this behaviour before with dried out grease in lens helicals and aperture rings. Where it operates smoothly until the lighter fluid evaporates. The only I have managed to fix those is with a tear-down (And on one occasion injecting a little oil/lighter fluid mix into the aperture ring with a syringe). |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 209
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2011 - 10:01 am: |
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What's the use? I give up. |
Mr_flibble
Tinkerer
Username: Mr_flibble
Post Number: 32
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2011 - 10:51 am: |
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Alright, if you're not ready to disassemble. I'll second Falisphoto's suggestion of flushing it several times with lighter fluid.
Flushing has helped me on a few occassions, like with my Konica S2 Auto.
If it doesn't work you're looking at a tear down anyway. |
Jeffk
Tinkerer
Username: Jeffk
Post Number: 39
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2011 - 01:45 pm: |
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Thanks, but I'm not going to hose it down with lighter fluid and hope for the best, if I'm going to fix the thing then I want to do a proper job and take it apart. :-) Found a couple Moskva cameras for cheap on ebay, I think I'll try to pick one up and tear into that first. Does anyone have other suggestions for a cheap camera with a shutter/lens assembly that is similar to the Super Ikonta? |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 211
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2011 - 05:20 pm: |
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I did NOT recommend hosing it down. I recommended cleaning it. The "hosing it down" part comes later, TO RINSE THE CRUD OUT OF IT THAT YOU HAVE JUST SCRUBBED LOOSE. The ONLY difference between what I recommended and what everyone else did is that I said that if you have not done this before, to clean it while it is still assembled. With the face plate off, you have access to the gears, the shutter blades, the aperture blades -- all the things you'd be cleaning if you took it apart. It's just that you don't run the risk of not being able to put it back together again. The only thing you will not be able to access is the shutter blade's pivot points. You'd have to leach the crud out of those, which is why it takes a while to get the shutter blades clean this way. This is not 'hoping for the best." It DOES work, and it works EVERY TIME, unless something is broken. |
Fallisphoto
Tinkerer
Username: Fallisphoto
Post Number: 212
Registered: 09-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2011 - 05:25 pm: |
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Can nobody here read? I ABSOLUTELY did NOT recommend "hosing it down and hoping for the best." I recommended cleaning it -- with a brush. The "hosing it down" part comes later, TO RINSE THE CRUD OUT OF IT THAT YOU HAVE JUST SCRUBBED LOOSE. The ONLY difference between what I recommended and what everyone else did is that I said that if you have not done this before, you might be better advised to clean it while it is still assembled. With the face plate off, you have access to the gears, the shutter blades, the aperture blades -- all the things you'd be cleaning if you took it apart. It's just that you don't run the risk of not being able to put it back together again. The only thing you will not be able to access is the shutter blade's pivot points. You'd have to leach the crud out of those, which is why it takes a while to get the shutter blades clean this way. This is not "hoping for the best." It DOES work, and it works EVERY TIME, unless something is broken. |
Br1078lum
Tinkerer
Username: Br1078lum
Post Number: 180
Registered: 11-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2011 - 07:31 pm: |
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Jeff, as you've probably noticed by now, everyone has a personal preference when it comes to making repairs on an old camera. Not that any of them are wrong, but some may be wrong for the situation. It's a flip of the coin call on your part as to how much you want to get involved with getting your family heirloom back in working order. You've done some research, and sought information from the group here before tearing into something that you could possibly ruin, which I commend you for doing so. Too many times I've read a posting that starts out with someone taking apart a camera, shutter, or lens, that have no idea what they are doing, and now need someone to guide them back from the brink.
Your grandfathers camera has been sitting around without being excersized for quite some time now, and the lubricants have migrated and dried in places they were not designed to be. Any dirt that could have settled in there when it was being used has been encased by these dried lubricants, and could cause jamming of the gears in the shutter. I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I will make a recommendation that if you do not want to tackle the job yourself (and I don't blame you), maybe it's time to send it to a professional repairman. In my opinion, it needs to at least have the shutter torn down so it can be properly cleaned and lubed, and since you have run some lighter fluid in on it, most likely the blades will have to be individually cleaned as well. The rangefinder model Ikontas are a bit more complex than the non-rangefinder types, and after seeing one of Hans's teardowns, I wouldn't want to do one without the proper tools. I'm in the middle of trying to bring a 521/2 back to life after someone stripped it of some parts, and it has been slow going while trying to find the parts. But with the help of some folks here, and getting some info on how it all works, I'll eventually get it back together and exposing film again.
So, don't give up hope of getting your grandfathers camera back in working order, but try not to do any damage to it either. Do what you are comfortable with, and have a professional do the hard stuff. You'll be happier in the long run.
PF |
Jeffk
Tinkerer
Username: Jeffk
Post Number: 41
Registered: 10-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 09:23 pm: |
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Thanks all, I think I'll leave it be until I can find a cheap camera with a similar lens/shutter assembly, like the Moskva, to practice on. If that seems straightforward, I'll attempt the Super Ikonta as far as I'm comfortable going, which won't include separating lens elements but judging by what I see in the Moskva photos can probably go as far as I need to get the shutter working smoothly. Challenge now is finding a cheap practice camera - the camera I was looking at was sold, so I'll just wait until something really cheap pops up somewhere. I reckon spending more than 50-100 bucks brings it into the realm where I ought to just consider sending it to someone who can fix it for me, though I don't know who that might be - just diving into the Super Ikonta might be fun, but I could also easily screw up grandpa's camera. ;-) |
