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Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 149
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2011 - 09:06 pm: | 
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I just bought a Canon EF off fleabay, and it is truly one of the prettiest EFs I've ever seen. Now, I really like the EF a lot, so I am loathe to return it to the seller. I'm hoping there might be an easy -- or at least not too expensive fix possible.
The camera arrived here with no batteries and both battery compartments were totally clean. I installed a couple of 1.4v zinc-air batteries to get things rolling, but no joy. Nothing. The battery check LED won't light up, the slow shutter speeds don't work, and there isn't even as much as a flicker with the meter needle readout.
Years ago, a camera repair friend of mine told me that the EF was one of the cameras he disliked the most when it came to working on them. High tech for its day, it's decidedly low tech now, and apparently the flexible circuit boards can be a nightmare to maneuver around, over, and between. Plus after all these years, he says they are becoming fragile. Just what I need.
Honestly I do okay fixing mechanical things. Electronics is not an area of my expertise. So unless it's something obvious, like a crimped or cut wire or a cold solder joint, I don't know where to begin.
Here's hoping it's something easy, but at this point I'd sure like to hear from somebody who has some experience with the EF so I can know what to expect. Help! |
Old_school
Tinkerer
Username: Old_school
Post Number: 140
Registered: 04-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2011 - 11:46 pm: |
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CT: Here is a link on the camera:
http://www.mikegrigsby.com/html/canon_ef.html
I wonder if the cells you are using have enough current to power the camera. I did a quick check for current on the old 625 cells, but to no avail. Check this article as he mentions the quick depletion of the batteries as there is no auto shut off. I always thought that would be a nice camera to have along with the Pentax ES model being amongst the first with the electronic shutter speeds. The Zeiss electronic being the first that I recall was very expensive & a desired collectors piece.
Try an auxiliary power supply, maybe a couple of AAA cells with jump wires to power it.
Good luck! Mike... |
Glenn
Tinkerer
Username: Glenn
Post Number: 960
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2011 - 03:37 am: |
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Unfortunately in this day and age, 95% of dead EF's are just that - very dead. Like the Python parrot. Take heed from what your friend said, a comatose EF will end up as a paperweight from any unplanned or extreme movements of the 'flexi circuits'. |
Dgmaley
Tinkerer
Username: Dgmaley
Post Number: 19
Registered: 01-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2011 - 07:00 am: |
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truly one of the prettiest EFs I've ever seen.
This sounds familiar to me. I'm wondering if your camera ever worked. You may have a new EF that somehow just got stored away. I have a K1000 that went through the same situation, but with a stubborn light leak. Mine, the customer returned it for a replacement and the dealer merely left it on the shelf for 30 years. Old School has the right idea. Power it from an external supply, but with some type of current meter in the line. See if it draws any power at all. If you find zero current, look for an open in the battery circuit. It may be as simple as a broken wire, but expect something more complex.
Dave.. |
Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 150
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2011 - 08:39 am: |
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Guys, thanks for the perspective. I'll be taking another look at it later today. If I have any positive news to report, I'll post a follow-up here. |
Michael_linn
Tinkerer
Username: Michael_linn
Post Number: 43
Registered: 04-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2011 - 10:14 am: |
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These cameras originally used mercury batteries which would give off some corrosive gas at the end of their life. The battery contacts may look good, but the effect was usually to corrode the wires connecting to the battery compartment.
Working on any part of an EF except the bottom can be a nightmare. Just getting the top off and back on is an adventure |
Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 151
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2011 - 01:14 pm: |
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Well, I removed the bottom plate to have a look at the hidden areas around the battery compartment. After taking the compartment out (held in place by two screws), I discovered this screw:
http://michaelmcbroom.com/images/ef_screw1.jpg
It's about 4mm long and it was sitting inside this hole, which is located beneath the battery holders. I have no idea where this screw belongs. At the bottom of the hole is a slotted brass screw, but it doesn't look to me as if this loose screw was causing any harm just sitting there. Wonder where it came from, though.
http://michaelmcbroom.com/images/ef_basehole.jpg
And here's a shot of the underside of the battery housing.
http://michaelmcbroom.com/images/ef_battholder.jpg
No loose, broken, or cut wires, no cold solder joints. |
Dirbel
Tinkerer
Username: Dirbel
Post Number: 57
Registered: 04-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2011 - 01:36 pm: |
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Just in case, this site has a repair manual:
http://www.baytan.org/prak/canon.html
Dirk |
Br1078lum
Tinkerer
Username: Br1078lum
Post Number: 173
Registered: 11-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2011 - 06:53 pm: |
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I wonder if these suffer from the same capacitor problem that plagues the Minolta X-Series?
PF |
Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 152
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2011 - 02:30 am: |
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Dirbel, thanks for the link to that repair manual! I've just been browsing through it, and have already found some helpful info. Geez, looking at the flex circuit, I can see why techs don't like working on it. Rather than having an integrated flex circuit, the way you'd expect to see on a more modern camera, the EF has essentially a flex board to which all sorts of delicate looking items are affixed and soldered. Wouldn't take much to really mess up the inside of one of these cameras, it seems to me.
Well, I've got a couple of ideas of things to try. It's late now, so I'll try them out tomorrow. I'll report back if I have any luck.
You know, even if I don't get the electronics working in this camera, it isn't that big of a deal. I've shot for years with meterless mechanical cameras, and managed okay with external meters. This one has 1/2 to 1/1000 second mechanically, which is good enough for most situations. So even if I can't get it repaired, it's not a total loss and I can still have some fun shooting with this old beauty. |
Glenn
Tinkerer
Username: Glenn
Post Number: 961
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2011 - 05:21 am: |
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Your loose screw is of the type that locates into holes 'tapped' in alloy castings of the body. The picture that illustrates the tripod bush shows an alloy strut located partially under the bush flange - one counter sunk drilling and a slot at the other end. On my two examples and on another three I know of, the counter sunk hole has a black cross-headed screw retaining that end.
However one should note that this type of screw is also used to hold down electronic components; picture three, left hand side shows one such application. My feeling is that this camera has been opened up by a very inexperienced DIYer and some area of the flexi circuit has fractured. The tools used on Canon's assembly lines did not allow screws to 'drop' off the end of the torque driver. Canon's position in the market today is all due to the efficiency and quality controls laid down in the era of the A, E and F Series cameras. |
Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 154
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 12:48 am: |
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Hey Glenn, sorry it's taken so long to get back to you on this. About the tripod bush and the strut beneath it, I see what you mean. I need to open the camera up again and see if that spare screw fits there. But I don't expect it to make much of a difference. The picture three you refer to does not appear to be as good of a candidate, but nonetheless I will check it as well. As to whether or not a neophyte opened things up and cratered them, well, all I can say is "I hope not!" It seems to me though that, given the rather primitive nature of the EF's flex circuits that a determined individual might just be able to repair same -- given the fact that they are not micro circuits and all, but rather macro circuits, if you will.
I must admit that because of other engagements I've set the EF aside, so I haven't done any further investigations on it. But I have some more free time now, and it's time to start giving it a closer look.
Still, as I mentioned before, even if I can't get the electronics to respond, I still have a very cool mechanical camera to play around with, so I'm far from being bummed on the deal |
Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 164
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2011 - 11:08 am: |
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Thought I'd post a follow-up. I got to looking at the repair guide again, and noticed something I'd missed the first time. Within the first few pages of the guide, it's discussing what lies under the bottom plate, including the two battery compartments. Somebody has added in handwritten notes the + and - connections associated with the battery compartments, indicating + to be the outer sleeve and - to be the central prong.
Seeing this, it suddenly dawned on me. My 675 hearing aid batteries probably have not been making good contact. I ran into this once before with an old Nikon F Photomic finder, the original non-TTL one with the round window. It picks up the + side from the outer sleeve of the battery chamber also, and I ended up having to wrap a piece of 14 ga copper wire around the 675 battery so that it would make contact with the outer sleeve. Kind of a kludgy fix, but it worked.  Well, now I need to go scare up some more 14 gauge household wiring and strip a couple inches off, then make a couple more rings for the 675s in the EF. It could be that this is all the camera needs.
It hadn't occurred to me that this might be the problem since the FTb's and F-1's I've owned pick up the + side from the battery compartment cover.
I'll report back when/if I'm successful. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 1154
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2011 - 05:02 am: |
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One note on the EF: It works perfectly accurately with Alkaline 625A batteries, so it is not necessary to mess with the Zinc/Air cells in this camera. If your smaller cells have not been making good contact, using 625A's may be the simplest magic button.
I bought my EF without batteries years ago, "as is" for $28. Would not have risked it except for the mechanical shutter from 1/2 to 1/1000, which makes the electronics a nice-to-have but not a critical need. In my case I was lucky, the camera fired right up when I put batteries in it. And, in spite of the warning label on the back of the camera, I have never had problems with battery life... I don't think I've changed them more than once since I got the camera around 1996. But I don't leave it turned on when I'm not using it. |
Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 166
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2011 - 12:34 pm: |
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Hey Rick,
Thanks for the follow-up. Yeah, I wasn't aware that the EF is not so sensitive to voltage. I know that's the case with some other manufacturers, like Pentax, but I've just been assuming that, since the F-1 and FTb are sensitive to the voltage difference, the EF would also be.
So, I'll go ahead and pick up a couple of the Alkaline 625s and give it a shot. I guess the different discharge properties between the alkaline and the old mercury don't matter that much either, eh? One of the things I like about the zinc-air batteries is their discharge profile is virtually identical to the old mercury batteries. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 1155
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 - 10:03 pm: |
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It doesn't seem to care about any of that. I haven't ever looked into it, but I guess that with 3 volts to work with, it has a regulator circuit in it. |
Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 172
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 16, 2011 - 05:34 pm: |
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Okay so I went down to Radio Snack and bought a couple of 625 alkalines, installed them into the EF and YES! It works! The battery check LED blinks and the slow shutter speeds now work. But I'm pretty sure the meter is DOA. I can get the needle to respond, but only at the very lowest end of the EV range, and I think the only reason why the needle moves is because it's up against that low end. I sort of confirmed this by cranking on the ASA dial. Doing so -- like cranking from 100 to 1600, for example -- causes the needle to rise and fall, but it doesn't respond at all to light. I point the camera right at a lamp with the ASA dial cranked over far enough for the needle to be off its stop and move it away from the lamp and there is no deflection at all. So the meter's out.
I don't suppose there's anything that I can do to easily trace down the problem is there? I know it has a thread that passes through a bunch of pulleys, and I'm wondering if that might have come off its track or broken it would cause the meter not to work? I kind of doubt it. Maybe this might affect adjustment, but it shouldn't have an effect on sensitivity to light.
Oh well, if I can't figure out what to do, I'll just use a hand-held meter, same as I've done for the last 20 years or so with one of my old Nikon F2s (non-metered prism on the F2). |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 1156
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 16, 2011 - 09:44 pm: |
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Well, you've got yourself a damn nice meterless Canon. Just pretend it says "F-1" on the front. |
Stratokaster
Tinkerer
Username: Stratokaster
Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 16, 2011 - 09:59 pm: |
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Or you can just use a piece of black tape to hide the model name ;)
It' very unlikely the thread has to do something with the meter, because the metering sector is directly coupled to the film speed dial. |
Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 173
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 16, 2011 - 10:13 pm: |
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Well if worse comes to worst, I can probably send it to Ken Oikawa. If there's anyone left who's still willing to work on EFs, it's probably Ken.
That or just wait for a good deal on another EF to come along -- albeit one with a working meter -- and, if it isn't as clean as this one, trade out the top and bottom plates. |
Dirbel
Tinkerer
Username: Dirbel
Post Number: 59
Registered: 04-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2011 - 04:50 am: |
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Turning the ASA dial rotates the galvanometer, this is probably why you see the needle moving.
There are two more things you can check easily:
Does the aperture react to light changes in AE mode?
Is the needle hold button pushed in, effectively blocking the needle? |
Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 174
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 11:39 am: |
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Guys, I feel so foolish. You know that little dial on the back of the left top cover, just below the ASA dial? The one that says Normal and below it, has a flash sync icon? Guess what? It was rotated to the CAT setting. DOH! So I can now confirm that the meter definitely does not work when the dial is rotated to the CAT position. Sheesh.
I am very happy to report -- nay, ecstatic -- that the meter needle is now deflecting normally, and not only that but sure appears to be rendering a correct exposure readout. Or at least it's within a half stop of my DSLR meter's reading.
All's right with the world! Woot! |
Michael_linn
Tinkerer
Username: Michael_linn
Post Number: 44
Registered: 04-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 02:16 pm: |
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You now have one of the Great Cameras, IMHO.
I bought one new 1n 1974 and it's still going strong. Never had a real problem with it.
I have serviced several others. Very complex and challenging inside. I think it is the only camera Frank Marshman, well-known US camera tech, simply refuses to service. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 1157
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 03:20 pm: |
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WOO HOO!!!!
Merry Christmas!
= |
Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 175
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 05:19 pm: |
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That's a good way to put it, Rick. It do feel that way!
Michael, I agree about the EF being a great camera. I had been shooting Canons for several years, including mostly old F-1s and FTbs, before I even heard of the EF. I think this was because the Old F-1 and FTb had been discontinued for several years by the time I discovered them, so I didn't really have much of a clue as to what else was contemporaneous to them. Plus I had also sort of turned my back on automation at that point, relegating my AE-1 and A-1 to the shelf once I discovered the joys of match-needle metering and partial area metering patterns. It was some time later, in my days as a camera dealer, that I finally acquired an EF for resale. I was in no hurry to sell it, however, and managed to take it along on several photo shoots before I finally, and with some reluctance, sold it. And it was during those times that I developed a soft spot for it.
Speaking of spots, I would like to track down more information about the EF's metering pattern. In its manual it refers to the pattern as Central Emphasis Metering and shows a diagram that indicates less sensitivity to the top of the frame, the reason being that this is where bright sky most likely will be, thus by desensitizing the meter to it, there's less of a chance of underexposure due to a bright light source up there. When Canon ushered in the AE-1, they referred to its metering pattern as bottom-centerweighted, which sounds very synonymous to the EF's Central Emphasis pattern, and which was described to do much the same thing.
I discovered rather quickly however that the AE-1 and later the A-1 had a nasty tendency to underexpose slides rather severely, despite the bottom-centerweighted nature of their metering patterns. So, I'm wondering if the EF's is essentially the same. Cuz if it is, when I load that puppy up with slides, I want to be prepared to deal with this "feature." |
Stratokaster
Tinkerer
Username: Stratokaster
Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 03:25 pm: |
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Cooltouch, congratulations on your new old camera and Merry Christmas!
The EF has a very accurate silicon photocell. The metering is basically center-weighted average, but the central part of the pattern is somewhat displaced towards the bottom of the frame. |
Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 176
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 08:16 am: |
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Hey Strat,
Yes, I'm aware of the silicon photocell in the EF -- it was a unique feature to Canon cameras when it was released. I understand about the weighting of the metering pattern. That's essentially what is meant by Canon's bottom-center-weighted metering pattern. The central area is located a bit south of center.
I think when I take it out and shoot slides with it for the first time, I'm going to treat it as if it were an A-series Canon, and watch out for extraneous light sources. I guess Canon decided on this pattern because they felt it would work better with the EF's shutter-priority automation. Personally I disagree with this philosophy. Take the Nikon F3 for example. Most of the Nikons prior to the F3 used Nikon's very successful 60/40 metering pattern -- 60% weighting to the central circle and 40% outside of it. With the F3, it became 80/20. And Nikon's reasoning, from what I heard, was the tighter pattern was necessary for its Auto setting. So go figure. Based on my own personal experiences, I'd have to say that Nikon was right and Canon was wrong. When I had my F3, I shot slides exclusively with it, and had essentially no exposure problems when I used the F3 on its Auto setting. Wish I could say the same for the A-series Canons I've owned. |
Stratokaster
Tinkerer
Username: Stratokaster
Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 07:19 am: |
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I can say that I rarely shoot slides (in the former Soviet Union it always has been difficult to find a place to develop them), but I never had any problems with the meter of the A-1. But of course modern negative films have very wide exposure latitude which effectively negates any exposure error.
But when I actually do shoot slides, I use my Asahi spotmeter and calculate exposure using the zone system. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 1161
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 09:16 pm: |
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The reason that some makers opted against a strong center weighting in AUTO mode is that you can't meter on your subject and then reposition for composition if the camera is going to take the meter reading at the instant of exposure. If the camera has a good memory-hold function, then strong center weighting works well ... as long as the shooter actually uses the memory hold. But most people in AUTO mode probably aim and click, and the center spot in the photo is very often not the point of interest where you want to have the exposure perfect. And example of this thinking is the Olympus OM2-S, which has spot metering in manual mode but averaging in auto. But the OM2-S has no memory hold function in auto mode. I'm not positive about the Canon EF, but I don't seem to recall it having a memory hold like the later Canon auto models did. |
Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 178
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 09:11 am: |
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Rick, the EF actually does have an AE memory lock button. It's that chrome button next to the film rewind crank. I prefer cameras that allow AE to be locked by depressing the shutter button halfway and then holding it. I use this a lot with my EOS cameras. The F3's memory lock button is down next to the lens mount, which I found to be a convenient placement for the middle finger of my left hand. With the EF I have to take my left hand off the lens to depress the AE lock button, which isn't as convenient if I wish to make any last second adjustments to focus.
Just an update for ya: I had a crew out to my house to remove three dead pine trees. This past summer was very dry and brutally hot here in Houston. It's been estimated that as many as 10% of the city's 660 million trees will have died from this summers drought and heat. I guess we are lucky that only three of ours didn't make it. We had about 15 trees on our lot, including four tall pines. 12 now and only one pine left. ;)
So anyway, I saw this as a good opportunity to try out my EF. I loaded it up with Ektar and grabbed a few of my Tamron lenses: a 24mm f/2.5, 80-200mm f/2.8 LD, and 300mm f/2.8 LD IF. Took plenty of shots of the crew at work taking down the trees. Got the film back yesterday, and exposures were more or less on the money. There were several photos that I knew would be problematic for the EF's metering and I chose not to use the AE lock because I wanted to see how it handled things. For example, there were several shots I took of a guy way up in one of the trees, and he was backlit by a bright, overcast sky -- so essentially the sky was a bright off-white color. Even these exposures came out acceptable. He wasn't a silhouette or anything -- although he would have been if I were shooting slides. The results though are that both the meter and the shutter's mechanical speeds appear to be very accurate. The photos came out great. Gotta hand it to those old Tamrons; they really came through for me. I love those old Tamron lenses. |
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