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Karl
Tinkerer
Username: Karl
Post Number: 51
Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 05:21 pm: | 
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Just stumbled over this page about plastics as they age and the environment in which they are stored.Stop worrying about film running out and start thinking about how long that camera will last.Will they still be there in the morning?
http://www.plastiquarian.com/survey/survey.htm#FUTURE DIRECTIONS |
Mndean
Tinkerer
Username: Mndean
Post Number: 185
Registered: 08-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 07:07 pm: |
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Happily, most of my cameras have little plastic in them. I think my X-700 is the only one with a comparatively large amount of plastic in it. They stay in a room with good ventilation and it's fairly dry here.
The strange thing is their references to cellulose nitrate and acetate and how museums stored them. Cine film collectors know all about this and have for decades, but apparently some museums haven't. |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 1052
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 09:46 pm: |
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That's a pretty good article. The important part of it is at the end, where it discusses specific materials .... there is no such thing as "plastics", or more accurately, there are so many different kinds with so many different properties that you can't understand much about them if you lump them all together as if they were all the same stuff. Some quick notes for storage purposes might include:
- Keep flexible PVC away from EVERYTHING. Its plasticizers leach out and attack other plastics: in the case of styrene they dissolve it, and in the case of polycarbonate they make it crack.
- Urethanes rot. There are different families of urethane, but the stuff that you encounter as light seals and shock bumpers tends to degrade and get sticky and nasty.
- Polycarbonate (fairly recent and not mentioned in the article, but by far the most common plastic used in modern cameras) is very tough and generally stable, but very sensitive to stress cracking agents. In addition to the PVC plasticizers mentioned above, beware of any non-flammable degreasing solvents... these generally contain chlorine and can severely attack PC. It's deceptive because they don't dissolve the material so they appear safe on first contact, and then the part begins to crumble apart. |
Tom_cheshire
Tinkerer
Username: Tom_cheshire
Post Number: 251
Registered: 04-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 05:21 am: |
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Rick's mention of rotting urethanes has spurred me to include a mention of drive belts. Some cameras, like the EOS Rebel and others, use a belt in the film advance. While I have never opened a Rebel, or any other camera with a belt, I do know that many "rubber" belt deteriorate with time. The better belts simply lose elasticity and get "stretchy" (like in turntables) but some belts turn into pasty "goo" (like the light seals do) which is a nightmare to clean off. |
David_nebenzahl
Tinkerer
Username: David_nebenzahl
Post Number: 117
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 12:56 pm: |
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Another thing, to answer Mdean, who said "Happily, most of my cameras have little plastic in them". Actually, that may not be true. I don't know what cameras you have, but for example, my Minolta SRT-101 has plastic parts in its innards, even though the camera appears to be all-metal. (I'm thinking of the little lever on the bottom that kicks the mirror back after an exposure; it's nylon or some such.)
Of course, if your collection consists of pre-war folders and the like, then yes, your cameras probably do have very little, if any, plastic in them. |
Mndean
Tinkerer
Username: Mndean
Post Number: 186
Registered: 08-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 01:36 pm: |
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That SRT gear made out of Nylon isn't terrible (doesn't crumble so easily), and there is a metal replacement gear. Yes, I have a good number of prewar items, but that doesn't mean there isn't Bakelite or celluloid parts in them (both plastics were around before WWII). Other cameras (old rangefinders) have small amounts of plastic, and none of my cameras seem to be damaged except of course for light seals. I expect something like my Brownies or even my Pony 135s will be the first to go from deterioration, but none have shown any that I can see as yet. Most of my collection sits in drawers and they aren't packed in plastic (I learned my lesson about that years ago). Odd thing, I expected selenium light meter covers to be fragile at age 45-50, but again, it hasn't happened. Maybe since they're kept out of light and excessive heat, they're not deteriorating as quick. |
Marty
Tinkerer
Username: Marty
Post Number: 55
Registered: 11-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 03:57 pm: |
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Very interesting article. Most of the recommendations for storing plastic items are very similar to storing photographs, negatives, and movie films. Cool temperatures, moderate humidity, low light, and good ventilation.
I've read that museums are having difficulty in preserving many items containing plastic, such as Apollo space suits. Hopefully, more specific restoration techniques will eventually be developed. Until then, careful storage is about the best we can do... |
Tom_cheshire
Tinkerer
Username: Tom_cheshire
Post Number: 252
Registered: 04-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 05:27 pm: |
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If you have a hundred series Carousel slide projector (like the Carousel 760, etc.) you are sure to encounter the crumbling plastic (Delrin?) focusing gear. It turns a powdery white then crumbles. That problem doesn't seem to trouble the later 1000 series (like the 5600, etc.). |
Karl
Tinkerer
Username: Karl
Post Number: 52
Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 09, 2010 - 09:34 am: |
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The article I put up now leaves me with a problem.I have always stored my cameras in new food grade zip bags with a pack of silica gel.It is not realy possible to put them out on display,so should I now take a hole punch and put holes in the bags to let all the gases,etc out.Does anyone have any other tried and tested methods for camera storage,I am sure that all methods will have plus and minus points. |
Chiccolini
Tinkerer
Username: Chiccolini
Post Number: 79
Registered: 06-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 09, 2010 - 11:01 am: |
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I never thought about that Karl but, on a slightly different note, I wait until the cold season when the humidity is very low to store my stuff so the silica gel won't have to absorb much, if any, of the humidity trapped in the bag/container with it. Same for the lenses in their plastic bubble cases. Does it work? Who knows?  |
Marty
Tinkerer
Username: Marty
Post Number: 57
Registered: 11-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 09, 2010 - 05:09 pm: |
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Trying to seal up items to control humidity, but still allow good ventilation for plastics does set up a sort of frustrating situation. While few of my cameras are less than 90 years old and are thus limited to the occasional celluloid label, I keep most of them out on display, (where I can enjoy them ,) and keep a dehumidifier going in the room 24/7. This makes my little room in the basement warmer than ideal in the Summer, but I've seen no significant deterioration over the past 30 plus years. |
Karl
Tinkerer
Username: Karl
Post Number: 53
Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 10, 2010 - 04:49 pm: |
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I think you are right Marty,the cameras need to see daylight more often.I am confused by one thing Marty,what does,warmer than ideal in the Summer! mean,I live in England and not realy a problem.:-) |
David_nebenzahl
Tinkerer
Username: David_nebenzahl
Post Number: 139
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 10, 2010 - 05:52 pm: |
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I think I can answer for Marty, as his profile shows he's from Iowa. It gets plenty hot (and muggy) in the summer in the Midwest (I remember some hellish summers when I lived in Chicago). |
Rick_oleson
Tinkerer
Username: Rick_oleson
Post Number: 1053
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 10, 2010 - 06:28 pm: |
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i have always been a big believer in ventilation to prevent things like fungus etc, rather than trying to seal them up so tight that a spore can't get in (good luck). If you live in an extremely humid climate this is problematic, but for most of us the environment inside your house is probably better than a sealed bag. Basements (especially) and attics are not so good, and will require some extra help like Marty has provided..... |
Karl
Tinkerer
Username: Karl
Post Number: 54
Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 07:22 am: |
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As you say I was trying to stop fungus spores etc, by sealing things up after reading too many horror stories about fungus ( time for a reality check I think ) maybe fungus is not as big an issue if common sense is used.As we all know nothing will last forever so I will take my chances and set them free. |
David_nebenzahl
Tinkerer
Username: David_nebenzahl
Post Number: 141
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 12:10 pm: |
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Well, the thing to do is to keep moisture out, not fungus. Fungus is already there anyhow; it's everywhere. You just need to avoid creating a hospitable environment for fungus to flourish in. |
Marty
Tinkerer
Username: Marty
Post Number: 59
Registered: 11-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 02:53 pm: |
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Karl was asking "what does warmer than ideal in the Summer" mean. Good question. The little room where I keep my toys and hide from the world is in the basement of my house here in Iowa in the American midwest. Winters are COLD and Summers are hot and humid. The cold isn't a problem, within reason, as long as humidity is kept low enough that condensation doesn't occur. In the Summer though, hunmidity can be a big problem. If you read books on preserving practically anything, humidity is almost always one of the worst problems. I've managed that by keeping an electric dehumidifier going down there all the time. The trade-off here is that the dehumidifier also puts out heat. Even though my room is in the cool of a basement, the temperature can get into the upper 70's in the Summer. NOT GOOD, but better than humidity, and I haven't noticed any problems developing down there in the 30 some years I've been using that room. Maybe someday, I'll rig up some kind of a system with a small window air conditioner venting outside the house through some kind of duct work (since my room doesn't have windows or even an outside wall,) but this is all speculation and dreaming at the moment... |
Tom_cheshire
Tinkerer
Username: Tom_cheshire
Post Number: 261
Registered: 04-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 05:28 pm: |
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Upper 70's? Upper 70's is hot (said in total astonishment)? That is just "comfortable" weather in Florida. Try mid to upper 90's with humidity on some days that feels like you're breathing underwater.
By the way, too low humidity causes wood to crack so that may be something to consider for people with "woodie" cameras.
Anyway, a family member brought up the idea of "Why don't they put their cameras in those vacuum seal bags where you suck out all the air from them?".
I had forgotten about that. Yes, I recall seeing a small hand pump thing that sucked all the air out of plastic bags and another system sold on info-mercials for food storage.
Has anyone tried those? |
Marty
Tinkerer
Username: Marty
Post Number: 61
Registered: 11-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 06:13 pm: |
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Well, for ME upper 70's is getting "uncomfortable." And for storing such things as old glass plate negatives and films, that's sort of pushing the envelope... The temperature outside here will get into that upper 90's area with ghastly humidity, but the house is air conditioned. If it weren't, I'd have passed away long ago, and my cameras would be lumps of mould.
This being an international forum, 70F=21C, 80F=26C, and 100F=37C.
Again, the level of HUMIDITY is very important here. I've traded high humidity for an elevated temperature, being more fearful of the humidity. |
Karl
Tinkerer
Username: Karl
Post Number: 55
Registered: 03-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 06:04 am: |
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We realy need a fabric that lets damp out,stops things getting in and breaths.Can I interest anyone in Gore-tex camera bags? they may well be worth more than the camera but it may be a profitable side line.Members X camera bags = ££$$. |
David_nebenzahl
Tinkerer
Username: David_nebenzahl
Post Number: 145
Registered: 12-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 12:14 pm: |
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@Marty: I can't believe that you live in Iowa and consider the upper 70s to be "uncomfortable". Do you spend all your time in the summer in your air-conditioned bunker? I grew up in the Midwest (Chicago) and remember many days up in the 90s there.
Maybe you ought to move out here (San Francisco Bay Area East Bay) where the weather is more or less balmy all the time. The effect it's had on me is to turn me into a wimp, weather wise. People here complain that it's so cold when it gets down to 50 degrees ... |
Marty
Tinkerer
Username: Marty
Post Number: 62
Registered: 11-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 02:02 pm: |
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David Nebenzahl was saying
[email protected]: I can't believe that you live in Iowa and consider the upper 70s to be "uncomfortable".
Well, INSIDE my house, I do. Outside, the Summer weather here may break 100 now and then, and the humidity is ghastly, but I can live with it if I have air conditioning in my house. In the winter it will occasionally hit 20 below zero, but again, I wouldn't like it that way in my house. There are plenty of places that get hotter than the American Midwest, and there are plenty that get colder, but not a whole lot of places do both.
I've got two sisters that live in California... San Diego and Thousand Oaks. They can have it. The weather is nice, but here in dinky town Iowa it gets dark enough at night that I can stargaze from my yard, I can hop over to the local shooting range with a hand gun to see how close I can put the holes together, and I can leave my keys in the ignition on Main Street.
My only point was that for many items, such as old photographic emulsions, 80 degree temperatures are less than Ideal. And yeah, I don't like it that way in my house... |
