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Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 84
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 06:38 pm: | 
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I have a pdf of the Canon service/repair manual/exploded diagrams for the Canon FTb and was hoping I could use it to CLA the slow-speed escapement on an FTbn I have. All the slow speeds last twice as long as they should, except 1 second, which sticks.
I managed to track down info on the Slow Shutter Governor, but the way it is presented is a bit, well, less than useful. The manual assumes that I will be totally dismantling the camera, and then discusses reassembling the SSG. One exploded diagram shows the SSG as being located beneath the mirror box, so I'm guessing that this is the way to reach the mechanism to clean and lube it? Remove the mirror box?
Any tips you'd care to pass along regarding this process, I'd be happy to read from you. I've never had the mirror box out of an FTb, but I have removed it from A-series Canons, Nikon Fs, and one Ricoh. Except for a few fiddly differences, they all appear to be fairly similar the way they come apart and go back together, I suppose. |
Gez
Tinkerer
Username: Gez
Post Number: 277
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 04:32 am: |
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If the slow speeds are sticking you could try spraying (carefully!) some contact cleaner into the escapement which is just visible after unscrewing the small plate, with the red dot, near the stop down arm.
If you are feeling brave the front panel/mirror box comes off clean and isn't fiddly to reseat, but there are a few things to be aware of:
1. The leatherette is VERY difficult to remove, take it slow.
2. It your model is the 'N' version, the shutter speed display will require releasing from the spring-loaded string, be prepared for lots of 'fun' getting it back just right.
3. The prism also must be removed, watch out for the paper shims.
4. The meter wires contained inside a clear plastic slieve must be unsoldered.
5. Try to move the panel forward not up, as there is a risk of bending the meter and follower needles. |
Gez
Tinkerer
Username: Gez
Post Number: 279
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 01:07 pm: |
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PS, I forgot to mention the most important part. The front panel can't be removed without first unscrewing the stopdown arm from its drive lever, it is accessible, just, under the baseplate after removing the tripod plate. Quite a lot of work! |
Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 86
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 04:55 pm: |
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Thanks very much for this, Gez! I think I'll try the contact cleaner first and if it doesn't go well, I'll suck it up and do the dismantle.
I've already had the top cover off this camera several times and I've had the prism out. So I'm at least somewhat familiar with the areas you're referring to. |
Old_school
Tinkerer
Username: Old_school
Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 12:58 am: |
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You should consider removing the mirror box assembly as the foam has deteriorated behind it. I have not seen anyone mention this as that junk will just become a mess.But, I would remove the galvanometer, do not leave it there to be damaged. Put it under a wine glass away from the general work area. A little twelve watt soldering iron is all you need. Take notes & draw diagrams as to where the wires go. There are 3 wires going to the CDS cell, one black wire to the meter, the wires on the deck lid are for the flash functions. Like Getz said watch the string for the speed indicator & note its direction. The galvanometer & rack if you notice have a hole in the rack & the post or stud this is for you reassembly reference marks. Set the ASA dial to like 25 or 100, think it is 25 & speed @ 1000 when you pull of the top. Notice that the rack will be all the way to the left & the reference marks line up. On the TL model the rack does not go all the way to the left as when it is that position it is energy cell check mode.
Do not place the meter movement on a steel desk top or container as the magnetism could be weakened or other wise destroy the movement. Wood bench is the king for precision work, trust me on this one. Anyway pull out the box assy & clean off the old foam from it & the body . Install fresh foam on body before reassembly, & a good time to do the mirror foam too.
Two screws hold in the retard assembly & they are accessible from the under side. Check the screw lengths as if you put the wrong ones back in the retard mech.. wont work & could distort it. Rinse in a naphtha solution, blow off excess & heat lightly with a hair drier to remove any moisture & lube pivots with a light oil, IE, Nye's, your choice. Now while the mirror box is out lubricate the shutter curtain rollers & other rotating parts, don't drown them just a little will do. If a little is good less is better! This my instructor in school would say. The pivot points on the retard mechanism the same thing a jewelers oiler & just a spot where the pivot meets with the hole. Capillary attraction will draw the oil into the surface you are oiling. If you get too much oil there is a product called RODICO for bolting up oil, dirt specs & finger prints available through Borel's or Twin City or watchmakers supply sources. Check the area where the rotating striker hits the retard mec., & polish if needed. Reinstall & a spot of light grease on the strike area of the retard mech., will work nice. Lightly grease the mirror box levers where the old grease is spotted & dry. Once you get the mirror box assy. back in check the function. Oh, there is one thing that I have not seen posted in anything here in this form & that is the advance pawls system in this camera. With the camera upside down, remove the cam shaped plate on the take up. You will notice there are three springs & three pawls or rollers, pull them out & clean them. they need to be assembled dry as any lube or dirt will cause slippage & the advance system gets all out of synch. OK! Now the meter needs to have the pointer & stops cleaned or they will stick. An agent that does not leave a residue is suggested, & check the position of the bumper cage.When you get it all back together & the string for the speed selector running in synch. 1000 to B to get the speed to index properly, the post the pulley is on is an eccentric, so rotate to align. The gear between the rack & shutter speed selector is also on an eccentric post for proper gear depth adjustment. A duck feather works to clean off the focusing screen of fine dust or particles. Good time to put in a voltage drop or limiting device ? diode. I am not sure as any mention of speed check, but you can use an older CRT TV screen to check a focal plane shutter. The scan creates a strobe so you can see the slit on the upper speeds. I use that or a florescent lamp,this is a little more tricky, to see if the curtains are running good or they need a little adjusting. |
Glenn
Tinkerer
Username: Glenn
Post Number: 913
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 04:40 am: |
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Old_School,
Welcome and thanks for putting your knowledge into print. Always better to do a proper in depth job, than a bit of quick quackery that eventually turns into monthly chore to keep the thing working. |
Old_school
Tinkerer
Username: Old_school
Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 07:20 am: |
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Thanks!
I will try to remember some things form all the cameras i have serviced & the procedures. Some of the service is quite unique and applicable for all sorts of precision repairs. I am also a watch repair person too & can cross reference tools & procedures where applicable.
While this topic is on the Canon FTb I will present a little story on one. A late friend, Dieter, owned a camera repair store out west. One day this young man came in with a Canon FTb or such & they chatted for some time about the camera, life the universe etc... The young man gave Dieter the camera & he displayed it in his show room case. Now what would be so unique that Dieter would do this? The young man had just come back from Vietnam & that camera save his life. It actually stopped a bullet while he was in the field. You would think he would have placed it under a glass dome at home, but he didn't. So that is a comment on the stout construction of the FTb. Don't try this at home or anywhere else for that matter: " Try that with a modern plastic digital unit!"
Latter all....Click...Click.... |
Gez
Tinkerer
Username: Gez
Post Number: 280
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 01:30 pm: |
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Old School, thanks for your input and welcome to the forum.
The placement of the CdS cell is something I forgot to mention along with the small neutral density filter that generally sits in front of the cell, it is easily omitted on reassembly.
Rick Olsen is also a fan of the crt-tv method of checking shutter speeds. I have tried the home-made electronic speed testers but haven't had any success with them. Instead I rely on the Leica Drum tester as described on S K Grimes' website. It is purely mechanical so it won't give any numerical data but allows shutter fade and bounce to be spotted very easily, something even fancy electronic testers can't always do.
In case this thread starts reading like an FTb appeciation society, and they are great cameras, IMHO they were let down by the selective metering, full screen averaging would have been better.
For my money one of the best cameras of the mid 70's is the Konica Autoreflex T3, rock solid construction and shutter preferred AE. |
Old_school
Tinkerer
Username: Old_school
Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 10:16 pm: |
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I never used the drum, but Rudy out in LA, CA used one in his shop. Without a lot of back tracking, I ran across a comment about a scratched lens. I just about ten minutes back ran across this on a web site about cheap or misrepresented lens quality & I'll put the link here:
http://www.zeisscamera.com/first.shtml
They also warn about not buying some cameras from the NETHERLANDS, so anyone interested should take a gander.
Gez, it appears that the Canon FTb also put a beam splitter in the condenser lens to send to the CDS cell also. This seams to make the micro-prism focussing a little dim. Maybe it is just me. |
Old_school
Tinkerer
Username: Old_school
Post Number: 7
Registered: 04-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2011 - 04:18 am: |
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I also should remind you to remove the self timer at this time & lubricate the pivots on it. The timer will wind, run, & preform better. The FTb I currently am looking at had a broken spring on the self timer, & a few other problems. The brake pad had also detached as mentioned by someone else so, take a look at them & make sure they are secure. |
Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 89
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2011 - 08:41 am: |
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Old School, thanks very much for such an in-depth procedure and explanation. I'm going to do a cut-and-paste and move your advice, along with the rest, into a single file that I can print out and follow when I begin to dismantle this camera.
Gez, I guess we all have our own preferences, but I can tell you that one of the things I like best about the FTb -- and the F-1, far as that goes -- is it's hard-edged partial metering pattern. I call it "hard-edged" because NO metering occurs outside that central rectangle you see in the viewfinder. Because of this feature, I am almost always able to position that rectangle in such a fashion that I can get an accurate exposure reading, one that is close enough so that even slides will be properly exposed. I have come to depend on this feature and really don't even need a spot meter. The A-Series Canons have the full-screen averaging, and they are way too problematic for me when I'm shooting slides. I owned an AE-1 and A-1 before I bought my first FTb or F-1, but after I bought my first FTb, the A-series cameras didn't get used anymore. And it was because of the way they metered a scene. |
Old_school
Tinkerer
Username: Old_school
Post Number: 22
Registered: 04-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2011 - 09:19 pm: |
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How is that FTb coming along?
Gez: I always liked the Konica products. I found it interesting that they put a notch in there frame line to identifie there product. Just recently, I read an article about the press photographers doing the same thing. They would put a few notches in the film mask to identifie there work. Ever see the movie, "Never Cry Wolf"? The older eskimo or Alaskan man says at one point. "Hum, Good Idea!" |
Ron_g
Tinkerer
Username: Ron_g
Post Number: 75
Registered: 07-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2011 - 03:40 am: |
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I like the Konica too.I have several autoreflexes and now three T3Ns.One of the Ns is black and that will be my carrying camera if I ever get the time to repair it.That particular one just needs the battery box repair as far as I know.
I also carry my Bessamatics but I cannot afford the lenses for them so I have to make do with my Konicas.Make do is not fair to the Konicas,they are very capable cameras.Ron G |
Gez
Tinkerer
Username: Gez
Post Number: 281
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2011 - 02:21 pm: |
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A new thread singing in praise of the T3 is required! The only camera to better the T3 was the Canon EF, and that was and still is a formidable camera, however it isn't as easy to work on as is the T3.
Konica lenses were as good as any and better than most, but perhaps for reasons of marketing, or lack thereof, at least in Britain, the Konica range didn't enjoy the success it deserved. |
Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 95
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2011 - 05:39 pm: |
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Guys, I'm gonna resurrect this thread to ask what is to me a much needed question . . . or two. To Old_school: what is your source for the foam that will need to be replaced when the mirror box is pulled out? I have a good source for the light seals and mirror foam, but I don't really know where to look for any other foam pieces I'll need. Now, I don't need them pre-cut. I have quite a few precision tools, including some sharp cutters, and I reckon I can cut and trim the foam.
Also you wrote "Now the meter needs to have the pointer & stops cleaned or they will stick. An agent that does not leave a residue is suggested . . ." Is naphtha acceptable for this? Alcohol? Also, for oil, I have some very fine machine oil, perhaps 10w -- is that sufficient? I keep it in an applicator with a needle to deliver it on target. And when you mention grease -- I typically use a gray-colored molybdenum disulfide grease for most metal-to-metal lube jobs such as this. It stays put and very little is required to do the job. It's great stuff. I even use it for automotive engine reassembly, so the metal to metal moving parts will have good lubrication before the motor oil is pumped to their locations. Do you think it will be acceptable for camera lubrication as well? |
Old_school
Tinkerer
Username: Old_school
Post Number: 48
Registered: 04-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 30, 2011 - 10:28 am: |
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CT:
I just used a stip cut from a square of foam from Micro-Tools.com for the back of the mirror box. The Topcon repair manual points out checking for the light seal on the mirror box very well, check it out Topcon Super D. Before I acquired the foam, tried a piece of black thin yarn, but it is too fibrous.
For a solvent to clean off the meter pointer, the Naphtha might work, or maybe a denatured alcohol, the EPA took all the good stuff away carbon tet, real MEK, freon, unless you can find a bottle at a garage sale, I use a solvet called One Dip which is for the hair spring on watches. This comes from a jewelers supply house Twin City, Jules Borel, look up on the net. I use a pair of tweezers with a very small strip of paper towel wrapped around the point & dip into the solvent & just lightly wipe the bumper stops & pointer to remove any residue that may have accumulated over the years.
Does this help? |
Old_school
Tinkerer
Username: Old_school
Post Number: 49
Registered: 04-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 30, 2011 - 11:47 am: |
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Sorry, I did not answer your ?
On the back side of the mirror box assy. you should see the decomposed remnants of the old seal, on the very top by the light shield or well for the cds cell just below where the view finder should be attached plus on the body. It runs the length of the back & bends around the right side & sometimes the left, but it should not interfere with the rods & linkage for the shutter. Use caution in cleaning the box & do not get any solvent on the velvet type strips where the shutter runs, they will melt. |
Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 100
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 05, 2011 - 02:39 pm: |
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Old_school, thanks again for all the help. Now all I have to do is find the time to do the work. In the meantime, I have just bought =another= FTb, and hopefully it will be in better shape than this one. If it is, then this one definitely becomes a parts camera. I'll still do the work it needs, because I should learn how. The "new" one should be here in about a week. Heh. For all I know, I might have even more FTb questions when it gets here. |
Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 101
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 06:22 pm: |
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I believe 2dealsnet is a spammer. |
Br1078lum
Tinkerer
Username: Br1078lum
Post Number: 100
Registered: 11-2010
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2011 - 01:32 pm: |
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Yeah, he's been posting stuff all over. I don't know how they keep getting on here. It took two weeks for me to get registered, but the spammers don't seem to have that problem.
PF |
Cooltouch
Tinkerer
Username: Cooltouch
Post Number: 106
Registered: 01-2009
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2011 - 07:58 pm: |
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Yeah, some forums have a button you can click on to report a problem post, but this one doesn't seem to have one. I too wonder how he's exploiting the registration delay.
Well, anyway, I have another FTb comment. The "new" one I referred to above arrived yesterday. It is in nice shape. Some light brassing on the corners, but only a few scratches and no dents or dings. The meter works and appears accurate. Only two areas that need attention: it needs new light seals, and somebody swapped out the film crank lever and its cap with chrome ones. I'm gonna swap out the ones off the problem camera with the chrome ones, and I'll at least have a clean black FTbn. But I'm still gonna tear into the old one because I want to know how to do it. |
Old_school
Tinkerer
Username: Old_school
Post Number: 79
Registered: 04-2011
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2011 - 08:59 pm: |
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C:
Go for & send pictures......
The Best Mike.... |
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